Forced subtitles in DVDs

[MickM]

I have many ripped DVDs (in VIDEO_TS/VOB format) for which I want to make an mkv that only includes subtitles that makes sense for an English speaking viewer i.e. if the movie is fully in English then I don't want any subtitles and if the movie has a few segments where a foreign language is spoken then I only want English subtitles for those parts (i.e. just the forced subtitles). I know that forced subtitles are a pain in the neck for DVDs - sometimes they are in their own track and sometimes they are embedded in the English subtitle track but with the forced parts the "tagged" so that a DVD player can preferentially decode and display them. For ripped DVDs like the latter case, can I direct MakeMKV to only extract the forced subtitles from the English subtitle track? It seems I can only select the English subtitle track, but when I view the resultant MKV file in e.g. VLC I see English subtitles for ALL spoken words (English and foreign) which is clearly not what anybody would want.

[Chetwood]

For ripped DVDs like the latter case, can I direct MakeMKV to only extract the forced subtitles from the English subtitle track?

As mentioned here, unlike BDs, MakeMKV does not offer the option to rip only forced subs from DVDs and off the top of my head I'm not aware of any player (VLC, MPC-HC, PotPlayer...) that would play back only the forced items from a Vobsub inside an MKV. Thus it looks like you need to:

• extract all languages of the DVD's main movie with Vsrip; if your track is #3 and you rip only this one, VSrip sometimes gets them mixed up
• open the sub in BDSup2Sub, select the correct language track and export only the forced items
• mux the newly created forced only sub into the mkv and flag it as forced with MKVToolnix.

[MickM]

Thanks for your response. There are definitely players out there that, with No Subtitles selected during playback, will show only the forced subtitles in a VIDEO_TS structure. Apple's DVD Player does it, 5kPlayer also does, VLC on the Mac doesn't but I heard VLC on Windows does.

So I guess what I'm saying is that given there are existence proofs that you can selectively display forced subtitles within a given subtitle track from the VIDEO_TS structure, and that the very same file structure is opened by MakeMKV, then a suitably modified version of MakeMKV could also produce an MKV with just the forced subtitles.

Honestly, I see everything else as "broken". I can't imagine watching an English movie that has segments of foreign language for which forced subtitles exist and not wanting to see the English subtitles for those bits. That's just the normal, obvious way to do things and so few programs out there do that. It blows my mind!

[Chetwood]

There are definitely players out there that, with No Subtitles selected during playback, will show only the forced subtitles in a VIDEO_TS structure.

Exactly, in a VIDEO_TS structure but not from an MKV. VLC on Windows certainly will not.

I agree however, that MakeMKV should offer to extract only forced subs from DVDs as it does with BDs but if this is simply an oversight on Mike's part or a more complex issue, is anyone's guess. MakeMKV's focus rightfully appears to be on HD source material and the MKV spec is quite clear on this: an entire track is flagged as forced instead of several items individually.

[MickM]

For DVDs the issue is messier than BDs in that DVDs utilize two different ways to deal with forced subtitles - they can either be in their own track, or suitably tagged and embedded in a fixed language subtitle track. The information is also spread across a couple files (VOB and IFO). Yes it's a hassle, but every DVD player out there knows how to deal with it, and some of the better written software DVD players also can. It's a shame DVDs are out of favor, but many tens of millions of people have lots of them (I have thousands), so the demand is still there for those digitizing their libraries. I've found a great way to compress them via ffmpeg (https://github.com/donmelton/other_video_transcoding) that beats anything I can get out of HandBrake, but it requires MKV inputs. To the best of my knowledge, there is *NO* MKV converter for DVDs that "just works" - and it's 2022! Sigh. I'm not sure who Mike is, but I'd gladly give him a nice donation if he would make a start this.

[dcoke22]

Mr. Melton and others over at Other Video Transcoding have admitted they don't even bother transcoding standard definition DVD content, which I find amusing. It is unfortunate that Plex doesn't support playing back VIDEO_TS folders. If it did, you could just transcode the ones that convert cleaning to .mkv files and leave the rest alone.

I wish MakeMKV worked better with DVDs so it was easier to get the content into a useful container. As it stands now, I avoid DVDs if possible.

Plex supports external subtitles; .srt files living in the same directory as the title for example. I wonder if you could download a forced subtitle only track for some (maybe even many) of your DVDs? That might make things a little easier.

[dcoke22]

As mentioned here, unlike BDs, MakeMKV does not offer the option to rip only forced subs from DVDs and off the top of my head I'm not aware of any player (VLC, MPC-HC, PotPlayer...) that would play back only the forced items from a Vobsub inside an MKV. Thus it looks like you need to:

• extract all languages of the DVD's main movie with Vsrip; if your track is #3 and you rip only this one, VSrip sometimes gets them mixed up
• open the sub in BDSup2Sub, select the correct language track and export only the forced items
• mux the newly created forced only sub into the mkv and flag it as forced with MKVToolnix.

If you make a .mkv file from a DVD that included one's relevant subtitle tracks… could you use mkvextract to get the subtitle track out and into BDSup2Sub to extract just the forced bits and then mux that back into the original .mkv? Is the only thing Vsrip brings is the ability to extract subtitles directly out of the VOB or is there something else?

[MickM]

I wonder if you could download a forced subtitle only track for some (maybe even many) of your DVDs? That might make things a little easier.

Yea - that's an even worse can of worms. There are many, many bad downloadable subtitle files out there with no reliable way of picking out the good ones. Other than rewatching my entire library I have no way to know which movies/episodes use forced subtitles. All the info is already there in the VIDEO_TS folder and all I want to do is run a script (which will take months). Even while DVDs were still big and before Blu-rays came into prominence there was never any one program that did what I'm after. If I knew how to program I'd join the team...

[dcoke22]

My skill at getting a movie into my Plex server is better now than it was when I started. Sometimes when I watch one of my early attempts I notice something wrong, like botched subtitles or whatever, and I make a note to go back to that title and redo it.

This isn't a perfect system, but it means if I never watch a title, there are no errors in it that require my time.

[MickM]

If you make a .mkv file from a DVD that included one's relevant subtitle tracks… could you use mkvextract to get the subtitle track out and into BDSup2Sub to extract just the forced bits and then mux that back into the original .mkv? Is the only thing Vsrip brings is the ability to extract subtitles directly out of the VOB or is there something else?

I'm on a Mac (i.e. apparently I have more dollars than sense) so many of these suggestions don't work for me. I did look into a few of these programs earlier on, and many haven't been touched in over a decade and are surely abandoned.

I've been ripping DVDs for decades. All I did was decrypt them and extract the main movie while maintaining the original structure - not wanting to mess with anything until a much better compression algorithm came along. By the time that happened (H.265) any further work on DVDs had ceased. Proof that in life you can't have your cake and eat it too :-/.

[dcoke22]

I use a Mac as well. The MKVToolNix tools do work on a Mac and are maintained.

I think BDSup2Sub has a Mac version according to their Github page: https://github.com/mjuhasz/BDSup2Sub/wiki/Download

I haven't used the BDSup2Sub program. I do use the MKVToolNix tools all the time (as does Other Video Transcoding).

[MickM]

I use a Mac as well. The MKVToolNix tools do work on a Mac and are maintained.

I think BDSup2Sub has a Mac version according to their Github page: https://github.com/mjuhasz/BDSup2Sub/wiki/Download

MKVToolNix does NOT support ANY subtitles at all in VOB structures - they are all ignored and do not appear in any MKV output it generates. Additionally, it has catastrophic audio/video sync bugs converting VOB to MKV (much worse than MakeMKV - which also has issues in that department. I have an active forum post on this that's getting no love.). The developer has categorically stated all work on VOB structures had been abandoned years ago and any requests for such will never happen.

My primary hopes lie with MakeMKV - it's close, but no cigar just yet!

[dcoke22]

MKVToolNix does NOT support ANY subtitles at all in VOB structures - they are all ignored and do not appear in any MKV output it generates. Additionally, it has catastrophic audio/video sync bugs converting VOB to MKV (much worse than MakeMKV - which also has issues in that department. I have an active forum post on this that's getting no love.). The developer has categorically stated all work on VOB structures had been abandoned years ago and any requests for such will never happen.

That doesn't surprise me. However, mkvextract will extract VobSub subtitles out of a .mkv container, outputting both the required .sub & .idx files. (I have tested this once or twice, but I don't do it often, so I can only assume it works generally.) Theoretically one could make a .mkv from a DVD with MakeMKV, extract the subtitles with mkvextract from the .mkv file, manipulate them as necessary and mux them back into the .mkv file, ya?

[Chetwood]

For DVDs the issue is messier than BDs in that DVDs utilize two different ways to deal with forced subtitles - they can either be in their own track, or suitably tagged and embedded in a fixed language subtitle track.

Actually, there's more options for subs on BDs - and this being 2022, as you mentioned, DVDs have long become an afterthought.

I've found a great way to compress them via ffmpeg that beats anything I can get out of HandBrake, but it requires MKV inputs.

How does this compare to DVD Shrink's high quality adaptive error compensation after a Deep Analysis?

Theoretically one could make a .mkv from a DVD with MakeMKV, extract the subtitles with mkvextract from the .mkv file, manipulate them as necessary and mux them back into the .mkv file, ya?

I don't see a reason why it wouldn't work, I prefer to use MKVCleaver instead, though.

[MickM]

Theoretically one could make a .mkv from a DVD with MakeMKV, extract the subtitles with mkvextract from the .mkv file, manipulate them as necessary and mux them back into the .mkv file, ya?

I don't see a reason why it wouldn't work, I prefer to use MKVCleaver instead, though.

Honestly, I don't think either of those solutions are reliable. Aside from running on a PC (I'm a Mac guy), I see that MKVcleaver is a GUI for MKVToolNix and I've previously mentioned that MKVToolNix has just horrendous issues with audio/video sync when converting DVDs to MKV. And for similar but not as severe reasons, MakeMKV also simply can't be trusted for the very same operation. I have hundreds of existence proofs on that very issue for MakeMKV, but like I alluded to previously, I can't seem to get any traction on it:
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