Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

[FubbAyH]

I'm not an expert, but I'll take a crack at those:

1) I believe the only advantage of converting to profile 8 is compatibility with devices that can't handle profile 7, so if your playback device can do profile 7 then I don't think there's anything to be gained by converting.

2-3) A MEL is essentially just the RPU, so if you you've added the RPU back to your re-encode then you've already added the MEL, in effect. I'll address the FEL case in answer 5.

4) pass

5) I don't think trying to re-encode the BL and FEL separately is a valid thing to do that will produce meaningful results. Remember that the video data in a FEL is an encoding of the difference between the HDR10 BL and the original DV source. But when you've re-encoded the BL, adding back the FEL video data no longer gets you to the original DV source, it just gets you a weird mix of things. I think it's a valid simplification to think of it like an equation DV = BL + FEL. If you change BL then FEL can no longer help you calculate DV.

What would be great is if we could decode the BL and FEL together to get the 12-bit DV source, and then we could re-encode that to whatever we wanted. But the trouble is, we don't know how to do that decoding step, because it's proprietary and only Dolby-licenced UHDBD players know how to do it. Perhaps one day someone will fully reverse engineer DV profile 7, but for now I think we're stuck with not being able to do anything with a FEL except for converting it to a MEL or playing it back on licenced (or cloned) UHDBD players.

[juzer7]

In fact if anyone is curious you can download 720p versions of Braveheart:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E51NcN ... sp=sharing

- BL
- DoVi 7 BL + original EL + RPU
- DoVi 7 BL + re-encoded EL + RPU
- DoVi 8 BL + RPU

To me "DoVi 7 BL + re-encoded EL + RPU" looks really good with no artifacts. However I struggle to find differences between DoVi versions at all

[quietvoid]

Reencoding the EL makes no sense because you're losing the benefits of the original if you just do it blindly.
Also it's complicated to keep it in sync with the BL.

[staknhalo]

Also it's complicated to keep it in sync with the BL.

Yeah as I mentioned previously, I have not been able to encode a single BL and mux back in its FEL (or even convert that FEL+then encoded BL to 8 ) without there being RPU sync errors/flashes in the file, somewhere, eventually (not always right at the start nor constant). I've tried x265/ffmpeg/though Staxrip UI/Handbrake/various encode settings multiple times/different rip and mux tools and differing versions of each program/yusesope's or quietvoid's tool - there's always a RPU errors eventually in a FEL title no matter what I do with it if I first encode the BL. MEL titles with encoded BL or 8 converted from 5 RPU + encoded HDR10 BL or HDR10+ to 8 with encoded BL - no problem whatsoever on any of those titles (I think I'm at mid-50s currently for native Dovi UHD titles I've added to Plex). I know others here say they're doing it, but I somehow am just SOL apparently. So any FEL title I just mux together and leave untouched - using external forced subs works fine in Plex so I don't need to worry about burning them in (main reason for encoding, secondary to the space saving aspect) - and being I have the source PGS subs, timing/spelling is accurate and all that jazz for my external subs, no worries.

Still, sucks being defeated

[Manixx2020beyound]

Also it's complicated to keep it in sync with the BL.

Yeah as I mentioned previously, I have not been able to encode a single BL and mux back in its FEL (or even convert that FEL+then encoded BL to 8 ) without there being RPU sync errors/flashes in the file, somewhere, eventually (not always right at the start nor constant). I've tried x265/ffmpeg/though Staxrip UI/Handbrake/various encode settings multiple times/different rip and mux tools and differing versions of each program/yusesope's or quietvoid's tool - there's always a RPU errors eventually in a FEL title no matter what I do with it if I first encode the BL. MEL titles with encoded BL or 8 converted from 5 RPU + encoded HDR10 BL or HDR10+ to 8 with encoded BL - no problem whatsoever on any of those titles (I think I'm at mid-50s currently for native Dovi UHD titles I've added to Plex). I know others here say they're doing it, but I somehow am just SOL apparently. So any FEL title I just mux together and leave untouched - using external forced subs works fine in Plex so I don't need to worry about burning them in (main reason for encoding, secondary to the space saving aspect) - and being I have the source PGS subs, timing/spelling is accurate and all that jazz for my external subs, no worries.

Still, sucks being defeated

We are not defeated at all, there is a way,
I have just created a flawless copy of power rangers just for this test. FEL is 7gigs on power rangers don’t encode it.
18 gig base layer encode with FEL & RPU
You have to edit the FEL (has the nal unit) in the Rpu to reflect the hevc bl encode and that’s it.
I get no flashes no pixilation perfect alinement. Perfect profile 7 with encoded base layer
Inject the new Rpu into the FEL.
Mux with base layer in ts muxer nightly build & your done.
The hard part is getting a new Rpu.

FEL working on encoded base layer

D7FE8360-006A-4810-813A-D959EEDBEA36.jpeg (391.31 KiB) Viewed 39835 times

[staknhalo]

Also it's complicated to keep it in sync with the BL.

Yeah as I mentioned previously, I have not been able to encode a single BL and mux back in its FEL (or even convert that FEL+then encoded BL to 8 ) without there being RPU sync errors/flashes in the file, somewhere, eventually (not always right at the start nor constant). I've tried x265/ffmpeg/though Staxrip UI/Handbrake/various encode settings multiple times/different rip and mux tools and differing versions of each program/yusesope's or quietvoid's tool - there's always a RPU errors eventually in a FEL title no matter what I do with it if I first encode the BL. MEL titles with encoded BL or 8 converted from 5 RPU + encoded HDR10 BL or HDR10+ to 8 with encoded BL - no problem whatsoever on any of those titles (I think I'm at mid-50s currently for native Dovi UHD titles I've added to Plex). I know others here say they're doing it, but I somehow am just SOL apparently. So any FEL title I just mux together and leave untouched - using external forced subs works fine in Plex so I don't need to worry about burning them in (main reason for encoding, secondary to the space saving aspect) - and being I have the source PGS subs, timing/spelling is accurate and all that jazz for my external subs, no worries.

Still, sucks being defeated

We are not defeated at all, there is a way,
I have just created a flawless copy of power rangers just for this test. FEL is 7gigs on power rangers don’t encode it.
18 gig base layer encode with FEL & RPU
You have to edit the FEL (has the nal unit) in the Rpu to reflect the hevc bl encode and that’s it.
I get no flashes no pixilation perfect alinement. Perfect profile 7 with encoded base layer
Inject the new Rpu into the FEL.
Mux with base layer in ts muxer nightly build & your done.
The hard part is getting a new Rpu.

whats the hard part about the rpu just cause manual edit needed (that's fine) or only pro tools can output or something?

[samlop10]

Has anyone looked at these new players announced from Zappiti? They’re supposed to start shipping around the globe in November. This is the link to one of them:

https://www.zappiti.com/zappiti-neo-dolby-vision

They clearly mention supporting Dolby Vision both in MEL and FEL. They also mention using the ‘latest Realtek RTD1619DR’.

Is there a chance they might actually play the full FEL layer instead of just downgrading it to MEL?

I wouldn’t mind the downgrade at all if the all encodes were good in HDR10, but it seems more and more DV discs in FEL suffer from poor encodes when the FEL layer is ignored. Other than Total Recall, the latest ones to suffer from this are the Halloween 1 - 5 4K releases from Shout! They look great in Dolby Vision w/ FEL, but in HDR10 the encodes start falling apart. Other ones that suffer from this are the Studio Canal releases. They do amazing restorations of older films but the encodes always seem to trip when the DV FEL layer is ignored.

I am currently digitizing my whole blu-ray collection to a NAS and I’m trying to find a way to play DV FEL correctly to not have to compromise on the picture or audio quality. The holy grail seems to be being able to play back DV FEL correctly with all lossless audio options (TrueHD Atmos, etc.).

So at the risk of repeating myself, is there a chance these upcoming players from Zappiti might actually play the full FEL layer instead of just downgrading it to MEL?

They’re pricey, but if they can playback all video and audio formats without compromise they might be worth it.

[quietvoid]

Tested some files on the new FireTV Stick 4K Max.
Still has trouble with HDR10+ ending up with a black screen when Dolby Vision is triggered.

I couldn't get any of the FEL test files to play correctly without the device just blanking out after a couple seconds.
For some reason actual unmodified P7 FEL files work though.

It might be because with the test files, the EL is not synced properly.
Any other untouched file maybe? I tried the ones on AVS and here: viewtopic.php?p=104113#p104113

Otherwise I guess there might be a use for me to make a proper muxer..

[FubbAyH]

They clearly mention supporting Dolby Vision both in MEL and FEL. They also mention using the ‘latest Realtek RTD1619DR’.

Is there a chance they might actually play the full FEL layer instead of just downgrading it to MEL?

I won't get my hopes up. The RTD1619DR is the same chipset that is used in Zidoo's latest generation of devices where it provides support for everything DV except the video data in the FEL (it automatically downgrades to MEL). I guess it's possible that Zappiti have reverse engineered profile 7 to play the full FEL, but since that would be truly unique, I'd expect them to spell that out very explicitly in the marketing if they had done so.

[FubbAyH]

Tested some files on the new FireTV Stick 4K Max.
Still has trouble with HDR10+ ending up with a black screen when Dolby Vision is triggered.

I couldn't get any of the FEL test files to play correctly without the device just blanking out after a couple seconds.
For some reason actual unmodified P7 FEL files work though.

It might be because with the test files, the EL is not synced properly.
Any other untouched file maybe?

Would you be able to try one of the titles where the FEL is obvious (e.g. Power Rangers or Total Recall) to see if it is being used?

[RESET_9999]

Tested some files on the new FireTV Stick 4K Max.
Still has trouble with HDR10+ ending up with a black screen when Dolby Vision is triggered.

I couldn't get any of the FEL test files to play correctly without the device just blanking out after a couple seconds.
For some reason actual unmodified P7 FEL files work though.

It might be because with the test files, the EL is not synced properly.
Any other untouched file maybe? I tried the ones on AVS and here: viewtopic.php?p=104113#p104113

Otherwise I guess there might be a use for me to make a proper muxer..

that's because I did those samples with tsmuxer and it breaks something in the RPU when you split the file. I didn't know about that back then.
As @FubbAyH said, the ending credits of Power Ranger is a better way to verify if FEL is processed.

PS, I don't know why you're quiet about it but you should scream out loud that you updated your DV tools to generate DV metadata for ANY HDR10 MOVIE using madVR measurements lol
bye bye HDR10

[quietvoid]

PS, I don't know why you're quiet about it but you should scream out loud that you updated your DV tools to generate DV metadata for ANY HDR10 MOVIE using madVR measurements lol
bye bye HDR10

Because I haven't had the chance to test it. Some of madVR's scenes are very small and might cause flashes.

[RESET_9999]

PS, I don't know why you're quiet about it but you should scream out loud that you updated your DV tools to generate DV metadata for ANY HDR10 MOVIE using madVR measurements lol
bye bye HDR10

Because I haven't had the chance to test it. Some of madVR's scenes are very small and might cause flashes.

I guess it works the same way as the dynamic target nits algo works for HDR to SDR ? I mean both are based on madvr algo that measures pixels.
If so, I'm using 113b with my PJ (the last version before the time-limited build, I think) and there are rarely any flashes visible ( 98% of movies are fine) so it should be fine. I didn't try yet but I will this weekend.

[quietvoid]

Would you be able to try one of the titles where the FEL is obvious (e.g. Power Rangers or Total Recall) to see if it is being used?

that's because I did those samples with tsmuxer and it breaks something in the RPU when you split the file. I didn't know about that back then.
As @FubbAyH said, the ending credits of Power Ranger is a better way to verify if FEL is processed.

The credits are grey like HDR10, so nothing new.

[samlop10]

They clearly mention supporting Dolby Vision both in MEL and FEL. They also mention using the ‘latest Realtek RTD1619DR’.

Is there a chance they might actually play the full FEL layer instead of just downgrading it to MEL?

I won't get my hopes up. The RTD1619DR is the same chipset that is used in Zidoo's latest generation of devices where it provides support for everything DV except the video data in the FEL (it automatically downgrades to MEL). I guess it's possible that Zappiti have reverse engineered profile 7 to play the full FEL, but since that would be truly unique, I'd expect them to spell that out very explicitly in the marketing if they had done so.

Makes sense. So is the RTD1619DR ‘limited’ or is it capable but just not ‘allowed’ by Dolby to use the full FEL data?