Forced subtitles

[leosantare]

Something is wrong, it won't let me attach an image again. What is the problem with this?!?

[DukeFleed]

Okay so with mkvtoolnix, I create a new mkv and if it's the way I want it, I can delete the old one, correct?

Yes.

Can you post some screen shots on what to do in mkvtoolnix for this particular title? I don't know how to use mkvtoolnix whatsoever.

There is no need, as you have seen it is quite intuitive.

I can't even download mkvtoolnix. I tried to but ended up installing PC app store on my PC. Every time I try to download mkvtoolnix, it wants to download the damn PC app store instead, nonsense. Please post a direct link.

I download and install Mkvtoolnix from an Arch Linux repository (EndeavourOS, the distribution I use, is a derivative of it), so I can't help you.

Again, for whatever reason, the forced subs for this mkv do not show up in mkvtoolnix or VLC as a track. Instead, the forced subs are displayed automatically. There is no way to turn them on/off. Essentially, I can remove all (4) sub tracks from this mkv and the forced sub will still be displayed by default. It's as if I can't remove them from the mkv. Do you understand?

I finally figured out why forced subtitles can't be turned off. In my 1200+ titles (DVD and Blu-ray) I've never had this happen, except maybe for Avatar, but I should watch it again. In practice, in your movie in question that I don't know, forced subtitles are hardcoded, they are embedded in the video, and they can't be turned off, they are always active, and you can't do anything about it.

So the only thing you can do for this movie is: load the .mkv file in Mkvtoolnix, select the only subtitle track (i.e. the main subtitles), and in the box on the right put NO to the default flag. Save the file.


In the future, for a .mkv file that has forced subtitles on a separate track, do this in Mkvtoolnix: for main subtitles set the default flag to NO, and for forced subtitles set the forced flag to YES.

[leosantare]

Okay, thank you. I think I'm 97% there.

Please confirm, for the main sub track that I want. (again, I will only have (1) main sub track for each mkv and don't want them to appear in VLC by default. I want to have to turn them on in VLC for them to appear)
default track flag YES/NO
track enabled flag YES/NO
forced display flag YES/NO

Please confirm, for the forced sub track that I want. (again, I will only have (1) forced sub track for each mkv, if available. I want them to be enabled by default)
default track flag YES/NO
track enabled flag YES/NO
forced display flag YES/NO

If you remember, originally, I selected all (8) English subtitles for 2012 in makemkv. Why do only (4) sub tracks show up in mkvtoolnix and VLC?

[DukeFleed]

Please confirm, for the main sub track that I want. (again, I will only have (1) main sub track for each mkv and don't want them to appear in VLC by default. I want to have to turn them on in VLC for them to appear)
default track flag YES/NO
track enabled flag YES/NO
forced display flag YES/NO

default track --> flag NO
track enabled --> flag YES
forced display --> flag NO

Please confirm, for the forced sub track that I want. (again, I will only have (1) forced sub track for each mkv, if available. I want them to be enabled by default)
default track flag YES/NO
track enabled flag YES/NO
forced display flag YES/NO

default track --> flag NO
track enabled --> flag YES
forced display --> flag YES

If you remember, originally, I selected all (8) English subtitles for 2012 in makemkv. Why do only (4) sub tracks show up in mkvtoolnix and VLC?

Because MakeMKV did not find the forced subtitles, and therefore did not save them in a separate track. And this is obvious because as I told you in the movie the forced subtitles are embedded in the video. And anyway, if they were on a separate track, there would have been only one, in a movie more than one forced subtitle track cannot be, so in the movie in question there would have been 5 subtitle tracks in total (1 forced, 1 main, the other 2 are probably comments, and 1 maybe main for the hearing impaired).

As I and others in this thread have told you, when you rip a disc, you don't know in advance what the forced subtitles are, so it's good practice to select all of them. But they may or may not be there.

[Mr. Red]

There are two different kinds of forced subtitles (if not burned in the video track) on a Blu-ray:

• a separate track for the forced subtitles
• embedded in the normal "full" subtitles with a forced flag on each text that should always be shown

The "(forced only)" sub track option in MakeMKV scans the full subtitle for forced flags and extracts only the forced ones to a separate subtitle track in the resulting MKV.
MakeMKV can add the forced flag for such tracks automatically.
If no forced flags are found, the track would be empty and MakeMKV discards the track: "Forced subtitles track #x turned out to be empty and was removed from output file"

Most Blu-rays have a separate track for the forced subtitles and don't use the forced flags.
But some have both, a separate track and the forced flags in the full subtitle track, which results in two (nearly) identical subtitle tracks in the output file.

[DukeFleed]

Most Blu-rays have a separate track for the forced subtitles and don't use the forced flags.
But some have both, a separate track and the forced flags in the full subtitle track, which results in two (nearly) identical subtitle tracks in the output file.

Unfortunately, this is not always the case, bluray authoring errors can happen, and fortunately they are rare. I had them last year, when I first backed up my blurays (200 and more). The forced ones were without flags, and there was no separate track for them. I knew they were there because when I watched the movie with the main subtitles active, they appeared. So I had to extract them manually after the rip from the main subtitles. And it also happened to me that MakeMKV failed despite the forced flag, it did not find them, while BDsup2sub did.

[crazyg0od33]

I use this forced subtitle google spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Not sure if you use handbrake, but if they're not listed on that spreadsheet as "hardcoded" I use handbrake to burn in the subtitle track that's listed and then it's just always there, regardless of which sub track I pick when watching.

*then* I use mkvtoolnix and remux my audio back into my handbrake video file

[Chetwood]

I managed to download an outdated version of mkvtoolnix from another website. It's really ridiculous that I can't even download the current version from the actual website.

I agree, cause you can get it easily from Moritz's page or from Videohelp.

Instead, to find out which are the forced subs, I'll tell you how I do it. Let's say the .mkv file contains 3 subs. I usually use VLC, I check them by activating them one at a time. If the sub is the main one, I notice it right away because the subtitles appear on the video for each actor's speech. If they are subs for comments on the movie, usually the commenter introduces himself at the beginning. So the last sub must necessarily be the forced one if of course the movie in question has them, but in this case I know it because I know the movie.

And what's stopping you from doing that BEFORE you rip the movie, so you can deselect unwanted subtitle tracks, not even ripping them with MakeMKV?

There are (5) possible choices with the sub tracks for this mkv, 2012 UHD. This is shown in the previous screen shot I posted. (Disabled, track #1, track #2, track #3 and track #4.)
The forced subs appear with all (5) options. Therefore, I don't understand what you mean by "to find out which are the forced subs." It's like the forced subs are part of the mkv, I don't think they can be turned off.

As Mr. Red explained (and as has been done in countless other threads here on the forum), there's two ways of how forced subs are authored on discs and MakeMKV offers extracting forced subs only for ANY subtitle track which is why it appears with all (5) options, just in case a track might be authored with forced items instead of being in a seperate track. MakeMKV can't know that before having parsed the entire movie so it does this on the fly when ripping and will remove tracks that had no forced items at the end of the ripping process. The forced subs usually will be played back ignoring your players default setting but of course you can turn them off; after all it's not like they are images burned into the video. "To find out which are the forced subs" is done by playing back the file, cycling though the subtitle tracks, and seeing what track shows what.

Thats just it, any subs in addition to the main and forced ones, I do not want in the mkv that I create. I understand these specific subs can be completely removed from the mkv after the fact using mkvtoolnix.

Alternatively you can keep them all in (since they are quite small anyway) and flag them with MKVToolnix's header editor. So, if you forced track is #3, you can flag it as default/forced to have it play back automatically without having to save the huge file again.

[DukeFleed]

Instead, to find out which are the forced subs, I'll tell you how I do it. Let's say the .mkv file contains 3 subs. I usually use VLC, I check them by activating them one at a time. If the sub is the main one, I notice it right away because the subtitles appear on the video for each actor's speech. If they are subs for comments on the movie, usually the commenter introduces himself at the beginning. So the last sub must necessarily be the forced one if of course the movie in question has them, but in this case I know it because I know the movie.

And what's stopping you from doing that BEFORE you rip the movie, so you can deselect unwanted subtitle tracks, not even ripping them with MakeMKV?

And how do you know before ripping the disc? MakeMKV doesn't know which ones there are, or if they're even there, so I select all the subtitle tracks and check them after ripping. If there's another way, I ignore it.

[leosantare]

Hey,

I was out of town for a bit, but still moving forward with my 4k collection. So far, I've re-ripped (5) discs with all the English subtitles selected. I'm finding more discs having duplicate sub tracks like 2012. Example, track 1 is the same as track 3 and track 2 is the same as track 4. I have yet to find one with a dedicated forced sub track. To be more clear, the forced subs are displayed even when VLC is set to disabled, (no sub track is selected.)

This is fine for me since I want the forced subs to always be displayed by default. Although, if I find one with a dedicated forced sub track, I know to configure it like below in mkvtoolnix. (Thanks again DukeFleed)
default track --> flag NO
track enabled --> flag YES
forced display --> flag YES

I think I'm going to wait until I re-rip all my 4k's before I start using mkvtoolnix. I want to make sure I know which sub track I want to keep. I'm still set on having only (1) main sub track for each movie. For example, some movies only have one sub track which are the main subs that also include closed captions. Whereas other movies have the main subs with and without closed captions. I prefer main subs without closed captioned but if I want all my movies to be the same subs, I will have to choose the main subs with closed captions.

[leosantare]

I've re-ripped about 10 discs so far and came across one that has a forced sub track. All the other discs that have forced subs have them "embedded" in the mkv. Meaning there is no forced sub track, and the forced subs appear in VLC without enabling any of the subtitle tracks. For discs with a forced sub track, is there any way to "embed" the forced sub track in the mkv like the others?

As I mentioned, some discs have the main subs with and without captions. Which one is more preferred?

I came across one disc that has a sub track that is absolutely nothing. I can enable this sub track, watch the entire movie and no subs will appear. Any explanation for this?

Most of my discs have exact duplicate sub tracks like below. Why is this? (I looked back in this thread to see if I already asked you this but did not see anything. Either way, forgive me if you already answered this.)

Track #1 main subs with captions
Track #2 main subs without captions
Track #3 main subs with captions
Track #4 main subs without captions

[DukeFleed]

For discs with a forced sub track, is there any way to "embed" the forced sub track in the mkv like the others?

Yes, but with HandBrake, for example. And I don't know if it would be worth it for you because HandBrake compresses files.

As I mentioned, some discs have the main subs with and without captions. Which one is more preferred?

I don't know, I always save the main subtitle track, with or without the forced subtitle track.

I came across one disc that has a sub track that is absolutely nothing. I can enable this sub track, watch the entire movie and no subs will appear. Any explanation for this?

Most of my discs have exact duplicate sub tracks like below. Why is this? (I looked back in this thread to see if I already asked you this but did not see anything. Either way, forgive me if you already answered this.)

Track #1 main subs with captions
Track #2 main subs without captions
Track #3 main subs with captions
Track #4 main subs without captions

Read Mr. Red's post and mine right after.