Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

[HarperVision]

Exactly what I use, did that as well in the past.

Automix with 10,000 nits?

Yes I always applied the dv meta lum values,
Bt2020 10k comes out unwatchable bright scenes are over blown.
What are watching it on?
Their is nothing to watch 10k on besides the monitor it self which does look beautiful @10k nits
Bc the capture file also becomes 10knits as well
But that does not match the 1000nit hdr version
Also tv led can’t use 10k nits, well fully I’m sure it will utilize the uhdtv max lum values
Forcing 10knit don’t look rite on the CX or any UhD tv out there.

The key is setting the HDR/AVI Max luminance to 10,000 nits, not just the DV Data Block. This is the crucial setting that makes it not blow out on highlights, along with using the least aggressive HDR curve on your display. On the LK990 it is setting “HDR Brightness” to the -2 setting which has settings of -2, -1, 0, 1, 2 where 0 is the default for 1,000 nits.

Everyone thinks the DV Data block is the only thing that affects the tone mapping and that’s simply NOT true and I’ve proven it time and time again! It is EASILY seen and repeatable when testing scenes like The Meg chapter 8 and Aquaman chapter 6.

[Manixx2020beyound]

Don matter how u configure it.
Results do not match.
Secondly any nit value entry in the dv data block lum section will override the hdr avi lum entry
10k nit in both hdr/avi - dv- data block
Even if u create (avi meta 422 ycbr )in which I tried as well all while sending the hdr info along with the dv still no match there is a bug no denying it it’s clearly visible.
Even used max fall/cll with the dv entry.
Nop no go
It’s also on the same scene on all devices

Also to prove my point
My Shogun can output dv/rgb 8b NO LLDV
So I capture the hdr10 spares munsil with the correct colors.
Then out put in dv to my CX using the vertex
And colors match and are not affected
By tv led.
No way 10k nit work in both lum entries that’s for sure.
Also how are u comparing what your seeing to what’s its soposed be hopefully not by just a visible glance or watching,
That’s not a sure shot way of saying what your seeing matches the original??
Some comparison from the signal your getting would be nice to valadate your actual inputs in the vertex2.
Till then it’s a bug.

[RESET_9999]

I went through all the scenes Vincent HDTVtest compared The LLDV bug is real!!!(at least for the oppo, x700, shield, dune, zidoo, Chromecast) looks like a problem with yellow clipping and a darker overall image(less punch).
The SM clip is an extreme case and is built to expose those kinds of flaws, as you can see in our previous comparisons with p5 p8 and HDR10 , it can look VERY close to the HDR10 / tv-led output. I feel sorry for the Sony TV owners(or whoever getting lldv only) but at the same time, I understand why some people are not bothered by it or won't even notice the difference in most movies.

@HarperVision , my X-550R JVC projector cannot compete with your PJ but did you ever compare lldv-pq and HDR10 madVR HDR to SDR pixel shader (with dynamic target nits and tonemapping)? This looks amazing on my end, like 50x better than passthrough. I bet madvr also looks better on your high-end PJ . https://www.avsforum.com/threads/improv ... r.2954506/

eagle: https://slow.pics/c/oPMdh7qd
Red Flower: https://slow.pics/c/7U5KBDaF
Sky: https://slow.pics/c/JLOQXCUf
reptile: https://slow.pics/c/pIDLTaDN
cactus: https://slow.pics/c/0ShTtaD7
waves: https://slow.pics/c/KAo1kZw5

[ragico]

I went through all the scenes Vincent compared. The LLDV bug is real!!!(at least for the oppo,x700,shield,dune) looks like a problem with yellow clipping and a darker overall image(less punch).
The SM clip is an extreme case and is built to expose those kinds of flaws, as you can see in our previous comparisons with p5 p8 and HDR10 , it can look VERY close to the HDR10 / tv-led output. I feel sorry for the Sony owners but at the same time, I understand why some people are not bothered by it or won't even notice the difference in most movies.

@HarperVision , my X-550R jvc projector cannot compete with your PJ but did you ever compare lldv-pq and HDR10 madVR HDR to SDR pixel shader (with dynamic target nits and tonemapping)? This looks amazing on my end, like 50x better than passthrough. I bet madvr also looks better on your high-end PJ . https://www.avsforum.com/threads/improv ... r.2954506/

Red Flower: https://slow.pics/c/7U5KBDaF
Sky: https://slow.pics/c/JLOQXCUf
reptile: https://slow.pics/c/pIDLTaDN
cactus: https://slow.pics/c/0ShTtaD7
waves: https://slow.pics/c/KAo1kZw5
eagle: https://slow.pics/c/oPMdh7qd

You think we have to replace our sony x700 by the sony x800 mk2?

[deadchip12]

I went through all the scenes Vincent compared. The LLDV bug is real!!!(at least for the oppo,x700,shield,dune) looks like a problem with yellow clipping and a darker overall image(less punch).
The SM clip is an extreme case and is built to expose those kinds of flaws, as you can see in our previous comparisons with p5 p8 and HDR10 , it can look VERY close to the HDR10 / tv-led output. I feel sorry for the Sony owners but at the same time, I understand why some people are not bothered by it or won't even notice the difference in most movies.

@HarperVision , my X-550R jvc projector cannot compete with your PJ but did you ever compare lldv-pq and HDR10 madVR HDR to SDR pixel shader (with dynamic target nits and tonemapping)? This looks amazing on my end, like 50x better than passthrough. I bet madvr also looks better on your high-end PJ . https://www.avsforum.com/threads/improv ... r.2954506/

Red Flower: https://slow.pics/c/7U5KBDaF
Sky: https://slow.pics/c/JLOQXCUf
reptile: https://slow.pics/c/pIDLTaDN
cactus: https://slow.pics/c/0ShTtaD7
waves: https://slow.pics/c/KAo1kZw5
eagle: https://slow.pics/c/oPMdh7qd

You think we have to replace our sony x700 by the sony x800 mk2?

I believe he's talking about sony tvs, not sony bluray players.

[RESET_9999]

I believe he's talking about sony tvs, not sony bluray players.

correct ... most players can do both DV mode and TV-led capable TVs are not affected by this bug.
Also, there's the GoogleTV Chromecast that output lldv by default last time I checked, and no way to force tv-led unless you have an hdfury device (or a tv that doesnt support lldv).
the xbox i think also only send lldv ? but im not sure.

[lexyz]

I went through all the scenes Vincent compared. The LLDV bug is real!!!(at least for the oppo,x700,shield,dune) looks like a problem with yellow clipping and a darker overall image(less punch).

I'm glad you finally see it
viewtopic.php?p=104152#p104152
viewtopic.php?p=102737#p102737

Still I see LLDV output from Shield TV has less pasteurization, noise, and colors issues in comparison with X700, but tends to more highlights clipping

Also, check LLDV bugs noted by S.Spears himself.
https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.ph ... st18983769


Good news is 2021 Bravias are TV-led.
Bad news is Player-led bugs will not be fixed.

[ragico]

Someone here knows if Panasonic oled GZ 2004 year 2019 has got TV led?
Thanks

[mulucy]

I believe he's talking about sony tvs, not sony bluray players.

correct ... most players can do both DV mode and TV-led capable TVs are not affected by this bug.
Also, there's the GoogleTV Chromecast that output lldv by default last time I checked, and no way to force tv-led unless you have an hdfury device (or a tv that doesnt support lldv).
the xbox i think also only send lldv ? but im not sure.

Excellent analysis, thank you!
Just to wrap up the technical research to make sure all of us understand it. The LLDV bug ( aka Player-LED DV ) exists in all TV models regardless of whether it's Sony or not. It's a bug within Dolby's firmware, which is not going to be addressed, most likely. After reading and doing some Googling, it appears to me most Sony TVs made before 2021 are LLDV. I am assuming also this is why you felt bad for Sony TV owners in your previous comment. The LLDV bug does not really affect the players like Oppo, Sony X700, Fire TV Stick, Apple TV, and other streaming devices ( except you mentioned the Chromecast defaults to LLDV, which can be corrected with HDFury). Also, most players support both, TV-led and LLDV. So, does it mean the player automatically lets the TV handle the Dolby Vision mapping assuming it's not Sony? Please, correct me if I made a wrong statement and I misunderstood something.

And how do I know my TV does support TV-led DV? I have two TVs, a 2018 Vizio Quantum PQ65-F1, and a 2018 TCL R617.

[Manixx2020beyound]

I believe he's talking about sony tvs, not sony bluray players.

correct ... most players can do both DV mode and TV-led capable TVs are not affected by this bug.
Also, there's the GoogleTV Chromecast that output lldv by default last time I checked, and no way to force tv-led unless you have an hdfury device (or a tv that doesnt support lldv).
the xbox i think also only send lldv ? but im not sure.

Excellent analysis, thank you!
Just to wrap up the technical research to make sure all of us understand it. The LLDV bug ( aka Player-LED DV ) exists in all TV models regardless of whether it's Sony or not. It's a bug within Dolby's firmware, which is not going to be addressed, most likely. After reading and doing some Googling, it appears to me most Sony TVs made before 2021 are LLDV. I am assuming also this is why you felt bad for Sony TV owners in your previous comment. The LLDV bug does not really affect the players like Oppo, Sony X700, Fire TV Stick, Apple TV, and other streaming devices ( except you mentioned the Chromecast defaults to LLDV, which can be corrected with HDFury). Also, most players support both, TV-led and LLDV. So, does it mean the player automatically lets the TV handle the Dolby Vision mapping assuming it's not Sony? Please, correct me if I made a wrong statement and I misunderstood something.

And how do I know my TV does support TV-led DV? I have two TVs, a 2018 Vizio Quantum PQ65-F1, and a 2018 TCL R617.

The TLC supports both player led & tv led.
Hdfury or vertex2
Or a amplifier it let’s u see the specs
U will see rgb 24bit/- vs ycbr 422 12bit

[lexyz]

Excellent analysis, thank you!
... The LLDV bug does not really affect the players...

Very opposite
LLDV bug is a source-side issue.
Any UHD DV Blu-Ray player has this bug (and clones too)
Any bug-free Player-led source should send DV picture equal to TV-led despite a neglectible brightness difference. Of course if peak brightness value is correct in TV's EDID. Otherwise highlights could be clipped.

[mulucy]

Excellent analysis, thank you!
... The LLDV bug does not really affect the players...

Very opposite
LLDV bug is a source-side issue.
Any bug-free Player-led source should send DV picture equal to TV-led despite a neglectible brightness difference. Of course if peak brightness value is correct in TV's EDID. Otherwise highlights could be clipped.

It makes sense haha. But do bug-free LLDV players exist?

edit: Regarding the clipped highlights, what it means is, if TV can physically only produce 800 nits, but EDID presents 1,500, then players send wrong brightness information, hence the clipping?

[RESET_9999]

I'm glad you finally see it

Thanks, for the dropbox list, very useful.
It's hard to compare on the shield something that is not P5 because of the color issue. I think the difference we are seeing on those comparisons with the Shield is the red-push and that if we had a profile 5 version of the SM clip, the problem would look as bad as the x700. Also, this is probably caused by your camera, but I see more clipping(overall) on the shield LLDV that is not on the x700 LLDV pic but I agree that on your comparison, I can see more of the small purple pollen spots on the shield.
also, it looks like your HDR10 picture is from the 10 000nits version, we prefer to compare with 1000nits bl instead because HDR10 at 10 000nits looks bad on pretty much any TV even on @manix 3000nits shogun.

[kazuma]

can you play mkv-dv on kodi 18.9? (vero 4k+)

[HarperVision]

.........Secondly any nit value entry in the dv data block lum section will override the hdr avi lum entry
10k nit in both hdr/avi - dv- data block ............

.............No way 10k nit work in both lum entries that’s for sure......

The DV Data Block does not override the HDR/AVI settings, that's what I am saying I do and have proven over and over by doing it personally! I get the blown out highlights like you're saying when I ONLY change the DV Data Block, but then I immediately change the parameters in the HDR/AVI Max Luminance section to 10,000 nits and it magically then tone maps and makes the image with much details and NO CLIPPING, even in scenes which are easily noticeable like I said, The Meg chapter 8 (overturned boat) and Aquaman chapter 6 (Aquaman in chains looking at his brother the king with bright white elaborate framed window behind him).

What you have to do and maybe what I wasn't clear on, is that for those very bright movies and to ensure no clipping with DTM, then you have to set the DV Data Block to 1,000 nits (not 10,000) but set HDR/AVI max luminance to 10,000 nits. I have seen that the movies mastered at 1,000 nits and streaming movies from Netflix, iTunes, AppleTV+, etc. that the DV Data Block at 10,000 nits works extremely well and that is how I watched Army of the Dead, which was incredible. For any 2,000 - 10,000 nit source, you do need to set DV Data Block to 1,000 nits though. This is also what I recommend as a good "set and forget" setting to get full DTM for ANY source, but then I have to set the HDR Brightness to its "0" default setting. It doesn't look quite as good as the full 10,000 nit version when watching streaming iTunes and Netflix, so to ME at least, it's worth switching modes, which is only one button push on my Harmony anyway, so simple.

I think what you and some others may have done when testing this is set the DV Data Block and HDR/AVI's max luminance settings and not stopped the video, gone back to the GUI/Menu, and then restart it all from scratch so the new EDID and Custom Data takes effect. I have done that on many occasions and forgot to restart and was SO angry thinking I knew it worked before and I knew I changed parameters, but then eventually realized I didn't restart so the new settings didn't take effect. Once I did the difference was clearly apparent!

......Also how are u comparing what your seeing to what’s its soposed be hopefully not by just a visible glance or watching,
That’s not a sure shot way of saying what your seeing matches the original??
Some comparison from the signal your getting would be nice to valadate your actual inputs in the vertex2.

I have done many workflow HDR jobs using this method with my CalMAN for Business software and i1Pro2 spectro, which bears out the proper tone mapping.

I also have an LG 65C8 OLED which does TV Led DV and have looked at both using the same scenes. I am not saying that I don't agree there isn't an LLDV bug. I was just saying that it appeared to me that Vincent's conclusion wasn't based on enough data when he posted that video as he only appeared to have tested one UHD Bluray player, an Oppo 203 I believe. Now that you and others are coming in with more data, then it makes it more factual where the root cause is.

I also want to stress that I am mostly using an AppleTV 4K newest generation with Infuse app on ripped UHD Blurays, as well as iTunes, Netflix, etc. streaming 4K UHD DV titles. Most of your and Vincent's analysis is done using discs and disc players, no? Have you tested AppleTV using Infuse, converting the ripped HDR10 movie to LLDV to see if that shows the same bug?

I will have to watch Vincent's video again. I don't recall everything that was reported exactly.

I will post some quick comparison phone pictures showing how changing the HDR/AVI tab's max luminance to 10,000 nits eliminates clipping and does DTM. It won't be for image quality, just to show how it brings back all the highlight details in the clouds, window frame, etc. It also does the same for the low level shadow details too.