www.makemkv.com

MastaG wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 7:53 pm

shawnc22 wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:19 pm Here's a good read again on FEL v MEL for anyone interested: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... tcount=119. I have also never heard of FEL automatically being 422, would like a source for that if it's true.

For those asking what the "best" profile is when it comes to creating your remuxes, the simple answer is if your device can play it, then 7 because that's what the original profile on the disc is. Theoretically, if you're converting from 7MEL to single layer 8, it should be the same, because the EL contains no extra picture data. But if you're going from 7FEL to single layer 8, then you're literally discarding additional data that's used to recreate the original image. This is all a bit moot at this point though since no streaming-only devices today can properly play FEL titles. These devices simply don't have the capability to instantiate the two simultaneous HEVC decoders that's needed for FEL playback. This includes the Shield Pro, where even though it's able to playback FEL, it's not doing it properly.

With all that said, don't need do needless conversions for the sake of obtaining a "better" profile. Do conversions only if your device is not capable of playing something without it. E.g. for the shield, just take what makemkv 1.15.4 gives you, it's that simple.

I did a quick read on that link.
So in both cases the Enhanced layer of the disc will create a 12 bit picture.
But if it's a FEL it should make sure to uplift the 1000nits base layer to a a 4000nits final 12bit picture.
Where as MEL (profile 5 or will only create a 12bit picture but not 4000 nits.

However they also mention newer movies from 2019 which already have a base layer being 4000nits..
That would mean that MEL should be sufficient right?

Sort of, you cannot recreate a 12bit picture with MEL. 12bit in the sense of MEL is merely a 10bit picture padded to 12bit. But like you said, if the base layer was mastered at 4000nits, the difference vs FEL should not be that great in the current generation of commercial TVs.

Question regarding the Sony X700 and profile 7 playback from file.

I've seen conflicting posts on here so I just wanted to verify. Does the X700 play back profile 7 from BDMV or mt2s correctly (same as it would from a disc) or not?

Thanks,

>g.

glc650 wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:17 pm I've seen conflicting posts on here so I just wanted to verify. Does the X700 play back profile 7 from BDMV or mt2s correctly (same as it would from a disc) or not?

yes, same quality as the disc.

rosavanwinkle wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:54 am quick question i wanna ask
what profiles should we use or does this depend on the situtation
like whats the diffrence between profile 7 and profile 8.1?

DL FEL P7 (12bits) > DL MEL P7 (10bits) = SL P8 P5 (10bits)
so if you can play DL FEL P7, use that.

I'm assuming X700 has Cinavia and there is no way around it?

dotnotbot wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:48 pm I'm assuming X700 has Cinavia and there is no way around it?

nop, no cinavia via USB

dotnotbot wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:48 pm I'm assuming X700 has Cinavia and there is no way around it?

nop, no cinavia via USB.
My player is pretty old though, and i never updated the firmware. I dont know about the new one with up to date firmware

dapope wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:12 pm Very interesting, I would like to know where you learnt this since the public Dolby vision paper doesn't really make mention of this at all. In fact, while it does mention FEL it doesn't actually describe what FEL means. But it only lists profile 7 as 1:1/4 (4:2:0.) and makes no mention of either 12 bit colour or 4:2:2.

Either way, through 12 bit colour (theorized to make a small improvement to gradients when downscaling to 10 bit panel) or higher colour resolution, FEL profile 7 is slightly superior to 8.1.

DV FEL is 12bit 422 delivered as 8bit 444 via RGB tunneling. You read the profile white paper which (only) describes each layer.

lexyz wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:12 pm

pete19 wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:39 am while profile 7 FEL is dual layer resulting in a 12bit 422 signal.

Wow. Hold on Looks like you overtheorize a little
p7FEL is 420 as well as p7MEL, or p5, or almost any other video (except some 422 HD sattelite streams)
FEL is more bitdepth only, it doesn't add color resolution
p7FEL 422 is upsampled from 420 by player . Same for regular 420 HDR or SDR

all incorrect. It is like I wrote. Just read up on DV.

FEL is a Full Enhancement Layer (guess where that name comes from ?), all layers (BL or EL) are 420 as that is the Bluray spec, but a FEL (NOT a MEL) contains difference data that when combined brings the signal to 12bit 422. (this is Dolby's true IP in HDR and the one and only reason why DV will win the HDR format war)

shawnc22 wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:19 pm Here's a good read again on FEL v MEL for anyone interested: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... tcount=119. I have also never heard of FEL automatically being 422, would like a source for that if it's true.

Guess for the whole reason of that thread on bluray.com.... ?

they're listing all the FEL titles so that users know what they'll get when they buy the DV version of the same old movie they've seen already 100 times... FEL in 12bit 422 may be worth the investment.

pete19 wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:15 am

dapope wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:12 pm Very interesting, I would like to know where you learnt this since the public Dolby vision paper doesn't really make mention of this at all. In fact, while it does mention FEL it doesn't actually describe what FEL means. But it only lists profile 7 as 1:1/4 (4:2:0.) and makes no mention of either 12 bit colour or 4:2:2.

Either way, through 12 bit colour (theorized to make a small improvement to gradients when downscaling to 10 bit panel) or higher colour resolution, FEL profile 7 is slightly superior to 8.1.

DV FEL is 12bit 422 delivered as 8bit 444 via RGB tunneling. You read the profile white paper which (only) describes each layer.

lexyz wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 2:12 pm

pete19 wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:39 am while profile 7 FEL is dual layer resulting in a 12bit 422 signal.

Wow. Hold on Looks like you overtheorize a little
p7FEL is 420 as well as p7MEL, or p5, or almost any other video (except some 422 HD sattelite streams)
FEL is more bitdepth only, it doesn't add color resolution
p7FEL 422 is upsampled from 420 by player . Same for regular 420 HDR or SDR

all incorrect. It is like I wrote. Just read up on DV.

FEL is a Full Enhancement Layer (guess where that name comes from ?), all layers (BL or EL) are 420 as that is the Bluray spec, but a FEL (NOT a MEL) contains difference data that when combined brings the signal to 12bit 422. (this is Dolby's true IP in HDR and the one and only reason why DV will win the HDR format war)

shawnc22 wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:19 pm Here's a good read again on FEL v MEL for anyone interested: https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... tcount=119. I have also never heard of FEL automatically being 422, would like a source for that if it's true.

Guess for the whole reason of that thread on bluray.com.... ?

they're listing all the FEL titles so that users know what they'll get when they buy the DV version of the same old movie they've seen already 100 times... FEL in 12bit 422 may be worth the investment.

I'm fairly familiar with RGB tunneling and what having a FEL is relative to a base layer (The blu-ray.com link I posted is also not the one with the title listings). Not doubting you, but just wanted to see your source for where it states that the reconstructed picture from an FEL is 12bit 422 instead of 420. It also doesn't help that Dolby seems to have taken the white paper (not the profile description one) off their site.

The diagram on page 8 of this version of the white paper here does indeed state that the end product is 422: https://www.diversifiedvideosolutions.c ... _Paper.pdf

But then again, the same diagram from maybe a different version of the white paper says different:


Also another version of the same diagram also stating that it's not 422:


So unless I'm reading the diagrams wrong somehow, there does seem to be some conflicting information out there, and I'm interested in seeing where you're getting your info from.

420 is not wrong, the patent specs also only mention 12 bit YCbCr 420 reconstructed output.
As for the HDMI transmission, it is detailed as 12 bit YCbCr 422 because the metadata is also transported into the least significant bits.

shawnc22 wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 5:07 am I'm fairly familiar with RGB tunneling and what having a FEL is relative to a base layer (The blu-ray.com link I posted is also not the one with the title listings). Not doubting you, but just wanted to see your source for where it states that the reconstructed picture from an FEL is 12bit 422 instead of 420. It also doesn't help that Dolby seems to have taken the white paper (not the profile description one) off their site.

The diagram on page 8 of this version of the white paper here does indeed state that the end product is 422: https://www.diversifiedvideosolutions.c ... _Paper.pdf

But then again, the same diagram from maybe a different version of the white paper says different:


Also another version of the same diagram also stating that it's not 422:


So unless I'm reading the diagrams wrong somehow, there does seem to be some conflicting information out there, and I'm interested in seeing where you're getting your info from.

I mean the bluray.com link that I posted a while ago for a member here

Re 422, it's been stated in various articles for a few years now, incl. in Dolby papers, but they changed their website, hence some of the links don't work.

But, re 422, keep in mind this ONLY applies to dual layer DV FEL titles (NOT MEL), e.g. profile 7 UHD Bluray FEL.

It's possible the diagrams you posted refer to all the gazillion other DV formats that are single layer, hence for streaming, hence will never be 422 (color is always the first parameter to be reduced/compressed in streaming or OTA architectures - they can't afford 422, they don't even stream proper 4K, it's garbage). Re the last diagram that says "dual layer", profile 4 is also dual layer - maybe this is the diagram for that.

I guarantee you it's 12bit 422 for DV profile 7 FEL, as that is the master being done in the post prod facility and/or studio when they do a DV master for a disc release. Again, the master is 12bit 422 and the whole point of DV FEL profile 7 is that you can re-create the exact same signal at home (and if you had a US$40,000 DV mastering display you'd watch the exact same presentation).

And btw, 12bit 422 has the exact same data rate as 8bit RGB (444), but they had to use 8bit RGB tunneling because of HDMI spec etc

For profile 7 dual layer MEL etc they pad the 12bit container as it effectively only contains 10bit 420 data.

This is the whole reason we want/collect FEL titles on DISC (--> profile 7), not crap streaming (single layer, compressed garbage) DV content (for content that is re-released, hence a new version of the same old title).
And I only use tv-led DV.
This is the best you can get today.

For Mando, we gotta take the streaming version

dapope wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:22 am For anyone with an LG CX, the new firmware update purportedly allows profile 7 files to be played in the internal player. I'm unable to test this myself for a few weeks since I'm staying away from home. Previously the LG CX could only play 8.1 files. Good news if true because, unlike 8.1, profile 7 is dual layer and I believe supports the 12 bit colour in FEL titles. It could also make it far easier to play DV files if we can just rip them (albiet there still needs to be an audio conversion) rather than also having to do the Yosupe 8.1.bat conversion.

Whats the firmware version?

Will try to update later, if that is true then a BIG THANKS to LG.

Wanderlust3K wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 11:35 am Whats the firmware version?

Will try to update later, if that is true then a BIG THANKS to LG.

it's latest stable 3.21.09, you gotta wait until hits US and EU, but it is already available in Korea (donwloable from Korean website)

pete19 wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:18 am I guarantee you it's 12bit 422 for DV profile 7 FEL

Link your source please

Question regarding the Sony X700 and profile 7 playback from file.

1) The best option is dual track single layer 7.06 (green screen when stop) or new single track dual layer 7.06 bl+el+rpu (no green screen when stop)? or are the same...

2) How to mux a mkv dual layer 7.06 in m2ts working file on X700? i have demos working ok but when i mux with tsmuxer (differents versions) always fail...

Thanks, sorry for my english.

RESET_9999 wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:06 pm

glc650 wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:17 pm I've seen conflicting posts on here so I just wanted to verify. Does the X700 play back profile 7 from BDMV or mt2s correctly (same as it would from a disc) or not?

yes, same quality as the disc.

And is that from LAN (DLNA?) or just USB drives?