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Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 2:06 pm
by RESET_9999
Found some other interesting difference between HDR10 and DV on my C2.
HDR10 has horrible banding in the Martian and Kingsman samples but it's clean in DV.
HDR10 also has horrible posterization in the black fade samples (quiet place) but again clean in DV. (this confirmed on LG B9 too)
files:
https://drive.google.com/drive/u/1/fold ... KkCkKrH3JG
Also found a good example of the cmv2.9 black crush issue with real content:
crushed cmv2.9 (original):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/16f25Yk ... drive_link
no crush cmv4.0:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IXBaCE ... sp=sharing
no crush HDR10:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YlS1Im ... drive_link
Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 5:43 pm
by staknhalo
razierklinge wrote: Mon Mar 31, 2025 8:22 am
Hey @RESET_9999, quick question. When you're grabbing 4K WEB-DL TV releases, do you get the DV P5 or P8 versions?
I usually grab P5 to use with my Ugoos, but since Plex now has HEVC support I've been considering getting the P8 releases for friends to stream. Losing DV quality is a tough call for me, but I'm wondering if it's negligible with WEB-DL's.
If you want a 'technically better' file - go with P5, but then you (possibly, depending on use case) need a HDR10 fallback file as well for watching on non-DV devices so double file/storage space needed - or if you go p8 technically a little less better than p5 (not really much but still) but has HDR10 fallback so no double file/storage space needed for p8 - pick your poison basically
I just do p8 because of the amount of movies + shows I have I need to save storage space more than I care about what I'm losing with p5>p8
Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 5:59 pm
by razierklinge
staknhalo wrote: Mon Mar 31, 2025 5:43 pm
razierklinge wrote: Mon Mar 31, 2025 8:22 am
Hey @RESET_9999, quick question. When you're grabbing 4K WEB-DL TV releases, do you get the DV P5 or P8 versions?
I usually grab P5 to use with my Ugoos, but since Plex now has HEVC support I've been considering getting the P8 releases for friends to stream. Losing DV quality is a tough call for me, but I'm wondering if it's negligible with WEB-DL's.
If you want a 'technically better' file - go with P5, but then you (possibly, depending on use case) need a HDR10 fallback file as well for watching on non-DV devices so double file/storage space needed - or if you go p8 technically a little less better than p5 (not really much but still) but has HDR10 fallback so no double file/storage space needed for p8 - pick your poison basically
I just do p8 because of the amount of movies + shows I have I need to save storage space more than I care about what I'm losing with p5>p8
Yep that's what I'm leaning towards doing just for the compatibility with friends watching on Plex. I just wasn't sure how much of a quality loss it was comparing P5 vs P8 in a WEB-DL situation.
Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 6:24 pm
by RESET_9999
It depends on the streaming service.
Apple/itunes= P8 is better because of the P5 static reshaping
Movies Anywhere = P5 encoding is always worse than HDR10
For the other streaming services, I do screenshot comparisons and keep the best one.
Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 6:40 pm
by staknhalo
razierklinge wrote: Mon Mar 31, 2025 5:59 pm
staknhalo wrote: Mon Mar 31, 2025 5:43 pm
razierklinge wrote: Mon Mar 31, 2025 8:22 am
Hey @RESET_9999, quick question. When you're grabbing 4K WEB-DL TV releases, do you get the DV P5 or P8 versions?
I usually grab P5 to use with my Ugoos, but since Plex now has HEVC support I've been considering getting the P8 releases for friends to stream. Losing DV quality is a tough call for me, but I'm wondering if it's negligible with WEB-DL's.
If you want a 'technically better' file - go with P5, but then you (possibly, depending on use case) need a HDR10 fallback file as well for watching on non-DV devices so double file/storage space needed - or if you go p8 technically a little less better than p5 (not really much but still) but has HDR10 fallback so no double file/storage space needed for p8 - pick your poison basically
I just do p8 because of the amount of movies + shows I have I need to save storage space more than I care about what I'm losing with p5>p8
Yep that's what I'm leaning towards doing just for the compatibility with friends watching on Plex. I just wasn't sure how much of a quality loss it was comparing P5 vs P8 in a WEB-DL situation.
It's losing detail on color basically from what I remember, and not something you'd really notice that much if at all until watching back on a mastering/12-bit/future display
In terms of RPU effects - p5 doesn't have extra video stream data like p7 FEL, so no 'p7 FEL effects' to be had/lost. Pretty much get/retain everything going to p8 besides the ICtCp transfer info I believe.
Edit: This is factoring out other variables like sometimes p5 encodes are shipped at higher bitrates than the HDR10, or each version might be different sources/source encodes/versions and assuming brightness levels and everything match etc etc etc
Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 6:59 pm
by RESET_9999
It is really noticeable. iTunes P5 colors look washed out compared to HDR10 or P8, especially red and green.
P5 is just more efficient, and it has reshaping data like FEL, so the colors are improved (unless it's from Apple), but this is not something you would notice because it exceeds our 10-bit display.
P5 will always retain the original master brightness like FEL P7, so sometimes you get brighter HDR with P5. Last Breath is a recent example:
https://slow.pics/c/KLyTQ1BP
Bitrate never means much; the only way to verify encoding quality is a screenshot comparison. For example, Apple's 24mbps bitrate is way worse than Movies Anywhere's 24mbps bitrate.
Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 7:07 pm
by Nscribble64
There is 10000 responses and I ain’t reading alat so does it work?
Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 7:08 pm
by Nscribble64
Like can I watch Dolby vision off of my uhd rips
Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 7:22 pm
by staknhalo
RESET_9999 wrote: Mon Mar 31, 2025 6:59 pmBitrate never means much; the only way to verify encoding quality is a screenshot comparison. For example, Apple's 24mbps bitrate is way worse than Movies Anywhere's 24mbps bitrate.
Disagree with that - bitrate always makes the image look noticeably sharper to me (even just in motion without having to screenshot), because of the more data, especially along lines or walls and hair and grass and stuff like that - especially now compared to some ~15Mbps HDR10 vs ~24Mbps DV5 encodes for the same title some places will pump out
Once I start getting to ~30Mbps+ HEVC I start having to freeze frame and pixel peep myself to notice any encoding differences (mainly with self encodes from UHD there cause I've only seen Sony put out ~75Mbps UHD disc level stuff with Bravia Core)
Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 7:58 pm
by daffie
RESET_9999 wrote: Mon Mar 31, 2025 6:59 pm
It is really noticeable. iTunes P5 colors look washed out compared to HDR10 or P8, especially red and green.
P5 is just more efficient, and it has reshaping data like FEL, so the colors are improved (unless it's from Apple), but this is not something you would notice because it exceeds our 10-bit display.
P5 will always retain the original master brightness like FEL P7, so sometimes you get brighter HDR with P5. Last Breath is a recent example:
https://slow.pics/c/KLyTQ1BP
Bitrate never means much; the only way to verify encoding quality is a screenshot comparison. For example, Apple's 24mbps bitrate is way worse than Movies Anywhere's 24mbps bitrate.
So for ALL movies/TV shows from Apple/iTunes we should never download the DV Web files but prefer the HDR10 Web versions?
Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 8:01 pm
by RESET_9999
staknhalo wrote: Mon Mar 31, 2025 7:22 pm
Disagree with that - bitrate always makes the image look noticeably sharper to me (even just in motion without having to screenshot), because of the more data, especially along lines or walls and hair and grass and stuff like that - especially now compared to some ~15Mbps HDR10 vs ~24Mbps DV5 encodes for the same title some places will pump out
Once I start getting to ~30Mbps+ HEVC I start having to freeze frame and pixel peep myself to notice any encoding differences (mainly with self encodes from UHD there cause I've only seen Sony put out ~75Mbps UHD disc level stuff with Bravia Core)
,
I guess you didn't compare or encode enough content because I'd take a 15mb/s encode from MAX, Disney or netflix over a 24mbps iTunes encode any day...
Some Bravia Core high bitrate encode are of worse quality than lower bitrate bluray remuxes.
bitrate means nothing if the encoding settings are bad or denoised like Apple does.
Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 8:02 pm
by RESET_9999
daffie wrote: Mon Mar 31, 2025 7:58 pm
So for ALL movies/TV shows from Apple/iTunes we should never download the DV Web files but prefer the HDR10 Web versions?
P8 HDR10 version yes. As long as the brightness matches.
Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 10:11 pm
by daffie
Yes. Both files play like they should on my Ugoos on LG G1. Thanks.
Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 10:17 pm
by RESET_9999
daffie wrote: Mon Mar 31, 2025 10:11 pm
Yes. Both files play like they should on my Ugoos on LG G1. Thanks.
Lucky you !
Could you please also try the banding and black fade samples in HDR10 and DV, and see if you get the same as my C2?
viewtopic.php?p=171761#p171761
thanks
Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.
Posted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 10:28 pm
by daffie
RESET_9999 wrote: Mon Mar 31, 2025 10:17 pm
daffie wrote: Mon Mar 31, 2025 10:11 pm
Yes. Both files play like they should on my Ugoos on LG G1. Thanks.
Lucky you !
Could you please also try the banding and black fade samples in HDR10 and DV, and see if you get the same as my C2?
viewtopic.php?p=171761#p171761
thanks
Yes I did this also. But I didn't reply because I'm not seeing the same things. I don't see much (if any) difference in banding in these examples between hdr10 and dv.
I did see a small difference in the black fade examples though. But not horrible like you say.
I do have the setting "Smooth gradation" to low, maybe that makes a difference?