mkv stutter

[makememe]

Hello,

For many months I have tried to figure out a stutter when watching my mkv library. I assumed that the mkv file is not the problem during all the troubleshooting because of what I have read about it being a direct stream capture and therefore what the disk is presenting. I streamed first to a ps3, then ps4, then wdtv--after sony jacked up something, then x8-h to have the android flexibility, and finally and most disappointingly the awesome nvidia shield. I thought the codec support on the ps4 was the issue and horsepower the x8-h problem only to discover the shield is no different. The stutter is there for all of them and with much research and settings tried, devices, etc I was ready to give up, but this morning I parked the plex server by the tv and with hdmi decided it was time to confirm a baseline--that the file does not stutter in at least one case, viewed by vlc on the tv with better motion support than my gaming montior.

I found out this morning that the stutter has nothing to do with the server, client, network, or streambox. I tried with two machines both to my lcd big screen and then to a basic asus 24" pc gaming monitor <2ms using vlc updated and discovered my rips still stutter. It appears this stutter is the file, so I have questions about mkv hoping Woodstock or other expert or even Mike would please tell me what is going on. I used the default mkv settings to rip my library. Is this normal for mkv rips?

For those wondering what I mean by stutter watch the first 3-4 minutes of prometheus, bluray. There are long stretches of uninterrupted landscape aerial recording that afford the opportunity to see interruptions to the fluid nature of the scenes, however subtle.

When not stuttering it is a wonderful picture provided by mkv, but the stuttering is no good for me. I am ready to return to the disks unless someone can give me an explanation and possibly solutions. I used to think the stuttering was a consistent interval like 28-32 secs between each one, but I can no longer make any claim other than these files stutter. I believe I eliminated all possibilities other than the file being the problem.

Did I do something wrong with the makemkv ripping? Is this stutter unavoidable?

Thank you.

[Woodstock]

Stuttering when there's a lot of motion? You might be seeing telecine/interleaving issues. Stuttering at random places? Might be a bandwidth issue.

Bandwidth issues will show up when viewing in VLC by watching the volume slider part of the screen... if it changes color during the stutter, VLC is trying to buffer the video, and saw delays in the data.

The other is more complex, and I probably won't explain it correctly, but here goes:

Most DVDs are set up for about 30 frames per second display, interleaved. While the base rate for the video is closer to 24 frames per second, a process called telecine converts that to 30 by injecting extra frames every so often. Bluray does not do that.... USUALLY, but some publishers DO write the BD with a telecine and interlacing.

That's necessary for when dealing with non-digital playback (a CRT display, for example). But it isn't ideal for digital playback.

I deal with this using Handbrake... it can USUALLY remove the telecine pretty well, and different filters can help with removing interlacing. I always have detelecine and decomb (one of the filters for interlacing) set to default when the source is DVD, and off when it's BD, except for when I get a disk from NIS America.... in which case the BD is interlaced and telecined.

And I also tell handbrake to use "same as source" for the frame rate, even when the target device "works best" with 29.97 frames per second... Just looks better that way.

[ndjamena]

Film is shot at 24 fps...

A lot of the time that's enough, but when you're panning the low frame rate becomes painfully obvious.

You don't see that in the cinema because there's black moments between each frame that mask the effect, but you see it when you play them back on a 50/60 hz TV.

Modern TVs have 24fps input through HDMI and some have a system that deliberately inserts black moments into the picture to simulate a higher frame rate.

What you're seeing is most likely a limitation of the original frame rate, which is why The Hobbit was experimentally shot at 48fps.

Purists are resisting any kind of change, but as you've seen it is kind of a necessary step in the evolution of film. Unfortunately it won't help those films that will have already been produced before higher frame rates become the standard.

[makememe]

First, Thank you Woodstock for trying to help me figure this out--I appreciate the information; I have researched this to the point that I am lost.

During my research I came across stuttering from the 3:2 judder and 23.976 vs 24 and on and on, so I guess what I do not get is why I do not have the stuttering when using the disk. Does the player compensate? I assumed, mistakenly, that to have the stream as presented by the disk would give me what I get when I use the disk. It never occurred to me the file was the problem.

I would like to experiment with handbrake, again. I decided at the time I was creating my library that mkv was good enough. However, that was with the assumption that my mkv files were without issue. I spent way too much time assuming that parallel presentation. Minus the stutter, it is true how wonderful the mkv present is, but I somehow missed this stutter when creating the library. I am happy to finally have figured this out, but wondering about what to do with my library and all the time spent on it.

When you use handbrake, is it possible to clean up the stuttering without messing up the quality of the mkv? That is assuming it can.

Thank you Woodstock, and yes I just updated handbrake and looking at their guide. Hints appreciated.

[makememe]

ndjamena, is it the TV or the player? Thank you for your help. That is what I FINALLY decided to look at this morning--my braindead ass did not ponder this simple test until I had no other option. I connected the server to the tv having what I consider better motion capabilities. Same issue, so the TV is not helping.

I just answered Woodstock and this is one of the things I did not consider. Makemkv takes the stream and copies it, but to get to what we get watching a bluray from say a ps4 requires more work on the file. Woodstock provided guidance and now I have to learn how to get that done. And that is not a problem as long as this stutter correction does not mess with the quality of picture. The stutter is irritating, but to fix that only to find I screwed up the quality of the picture would be no good.

Any hints you wish to hand over regarding configuring handbrake, I am on board for a crash course.

Thank you.

[ndjamena]

It's possible your Blu Ray player is sending the images to the TV at 24fps and your TV is displaying them to it's best capabilities, while your MKV player is sending it at a different frame rate and your TV is taking it literally and is making no attempt to clean it up as it tries to display the higher frame rate being thrown at it.

Some TVs have a "film mode" that will reduce higher frame rates to 24fps by dropping duplicates, which works well for the most part.

My WDTV has an option in the HDMI settings to match the output frame rate to the file frame rate, technically Mastroska doesn't have a frame rate, but there's one written into the stream, it uses that and it tends to work rather well.

[makememe]

The point I was trying to make is if the TV does something with the image from the disk to compensate for whatever to keep it fluid--inserting this or that, it does not happen with the mkv or maybe I should say it does not happen well enough. I assume the player does more to help, in my case mostly a ps4. With that said, again I acknowledge how little I understand about this, apps like frequency switchers supposedly help compensate for the differences when streaming or the like. None of these tools helped me get rid of the stuttering, and I think it is because of what Woodstock mentioned and that being the file has to be cleaned up in some way. I do not know. All I know is that I have tried from different devices, many settings therin, freq switcher, plex app and kodi, different displays, vanilla machines to eliminate the server, etc., to conclude it is the file.

I am experimenting with handbrake, lots to learn with the app, when I get the time.

I appreciate the help.

I may not see this thread for a while, so Thank you for helping.

[makememe]

Woodstock, I just experimented with interleaving with handbrake and I quickly realized that I handled that problem, mostly realized with some DVD rips, with xbmc/kodi. I remember posting a thread about it on this site, but at the time I did not realize it is called interleaving. It is not the stuttering problem, unfortunately. It is good to know that I can be rid of it using handbrake. Thank you.

I neglected to ask what you mean by bandwidth? I assume you mean something like mobo choke point or hdmi cable issues? What do you mean by bandwidth? I ask because I did several tests to ensure my netwoking bandwidth not the issue and the final test being with no network involved.

Please let me know if you think it is the mobo or bad sata cables or whatever. I am open to investigate a different mobo. if noone else experiences this stutter, then is it the ripping machine? I did try another machine but the hardware is similar--not much of a test if it inherent mobo problems, etc.

Thanks.

[Woodstock]

In handbrake, if I'm dealing with any video that has a 29.97fps rate, I turn on detelecine and decomb, and USUALLY that clears things up in the output. The new output rate is just under 24fps.

Bandwidth is how fast the bits can be moved from where they are to where you want them. Networks can create artificial limits on the bandwidth, as can busy processors or bad drives. Any time there's more bits per second to be transmitted than you can move, it's a bandwidth problem.

Some systems can play a DVD with no issue, but the extra bits being sent for a BD overwhelm the channel at times, and you get stuttering as the playback has to stop and wait for the next batch of bits.

[makememe]

Thank you Woodstock. It appears your bandwidth suggestion then was about networking. I ensured the bandwidth is plenty, but I also ran twistedpair to check, and eliminated the network altogether.

I may have made some improvement, but I have apparently stumbled onto another issue. yeepee. The first try with handbrake, I left it mkv and mostly default minus the detelicine, resulted in a promising video that is a seekable file, at least within vlc. However, I tried again lossless, changed nothing else, because there was slight pixelation in clouds--I use the early prometheus scenes as my baseline, but this time the file is not seekable within vlc. I found a thread, created sometime ago--years, that states Handbrake doesn't write cue markers into mkv files.

Do you have issues with seeking? I found in other forums this can be fixed with mkvtool or similar, but I hope you can tell me your experience. I hope to solve the stutter without creating more issues.

And this help request is open to anyone especially those with handbrake experience and mkv. I am still learning this app and learning with large files is slow going.

Thank you.

[Woodstock]

Seek within players is a "maybe works" thing. I can do seek within VLC and with most of my stand-alone players connected via SMB networking. Using DLNA networking, a few of the stand-alone players will only seek in MP4 files that have been created with the "web optimized" setting in handbrake. My Samsung TVs have trouble seeking, period, doesn't matter what type file it is.

As ndjamena says, MKV support varies with hardware players. Linux-based players seem to do best, but many of them have not had software updates in months (or years), because the companies that sold them jumped into the business, then out again.

Edited to add.... If you treat this as an entertaining thing, "play" with different things. Sometimes I'll rip a large series over again because I learned something new about handbrake. Recently I redid 354 episodes of the series Bleach because I found a way to get subtitles to display properly AND have chapters in an MP4 file... something that didn't work the first 5 times I tried it.

[makememe]

I have had only one non-seeking video from the lot, so I do not know the difference; I used vlc each time. What this discourages is batch processing, for me anyway. How fun that would be to find n processesed un-seekable videos?

Thank you for the help.

[ndjamena]

Non-seeking files were never finalised. Something disrupted the encoding process and the program aborted, so no index was ever written into the file.

[makememe]

Maybe I should have waited to question the non-seek. Because it takes a while--I am stupidly testing with a 30GB file, I decided to put it here just in case I missed something in the configuration. So far, I have had only non-seeking result. I have no idea what happened, same file, same iteration of handbrake, same machine. Whatever.

For my need, I consider this thread at its end. I appreciate the help, but now I have to figure the balance between quality and processing time for each file.

Thank you.