General subtitle track with parts being marked as forced

[Passi]

Hi there,

I used MakeMKV to rip my entire bluray collection of more than 450 discs so far, and everything works great.
There are about 15 disks where I have a problem with the forced subtitle.

For example:
-Van Helsing
-The Mummy, The Mummy Returns, The Mummy 3
-Back to the Future I-III
...

All these discs are containing the forced subtitles as part of the general subtitle, where only some parts have the "forced" flag.

Now when I try to rip those (only the forced parts), then I always end up either having the complete subtitle (when choosing the subtitle track) or without any subtitle (when choosing the equivalent force subtitle track). My standalone player and also Total Media Theatre show up only the forced parts of the subtitle correctly when playing back the original BluRay disc.

Is there a way to get a MKV containing only the forced part of the subtitle track?

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks and best regards,
Pascal

[Woodstock]

When you "open" a disk, you can click on the triangle next to each title, and have access to selecting tracks. On a BD, all of the subtitle tracks have the option of selecting "forced only", which may or may not work... because not all forced subtitles are the same. Some have a separate track. Some are tagged as forced within a track that has "all" subtitles.

MakeMKV does try to pull forced-only out, but it doesn't always work.

As for displaying the subtitles, PGS subtitles in an MKV container are not universally recognized by players. You can try ripping with the WDTV profile (have to enable "Expert mode" to see the profile selection), which will compress the subtitles as it writes them to the MKV; some players will ONLY play compressed subs, others won't do anything with PGS.

[Passi]

Hi woodstock, thanks for your fast answer.

Sure, I know about the triangle. I'm always selecting the tracks I want for the title.

As far as I know there are thee kind of "forced" subtitles:

1. General, separate subtitle stream which is selected by navigational commands. To check which track is it in this case, I always play back the original BluRay and check in Total Media Theatre which subtitle track got chosen. This works pefectly, I always get the correct "forced" subtitle track.

2. Separate subtitle stream which is completely being marked as forced. Total Media Theatre then shows, that no subtitle track is chosen (by navigational commands). In this case, I simply select all of the forced subtitle tracks in MakeMKV in the desired language. This works perfectly, too. The forced subtitle track gets exported to the MKV file.

3. And these are the problem cases: One subtitle track which contains the general subtitle, as well as the forced subtitle in one. Only a few entries are marked as forced. But MakeMKV seems not to be able to extract only these parts. It always extracts either the complete subtitle track containing the general subtitles too, or nothing. But I want a track which contains only the forced parts of the subtitle track.

It's not a player thing for me. Forced PGS subtitles are displayed fine with HDI Dune.

As I said, I already ripped 447 discs with MakeMKV and all are working fine with correct forced subtitles on my player, because they contain 1. or 2. as subtitles. But I got 15 discs which contain the third kind of subtitles and I don't seem to be able to extract the forced part of these mixed subtitles tracks.

Any ideas?

[Chetwood]

Actually, if you do have a mixed track and those items really are marked as forced then MakeMKV does extract them to a separate stream. It has problems with subs that are forced by navigational commmands.

[Passi]

Actually, if you do have a mixed track and those items really are marked as forced then MakeMKV does extract them to a separate stream. It has problems with subs that are forced by navigational commmands.

Sure, MakeMKV is not able to determine forced subs by navigational commands. That's why I check each disc before ripping to see if it uses a sub like this and if so, to manually select this track anf manually flag it as forced track.

So if MakeMKV should extract the forced items of the mixed subtitle track as separate stream, then maybe there is a bug for particular discs? Or there is a new or other kind of flag for forced subtitles parts which is not recognized by MakeMKV?

See the following example with "Van Helsing". I selected all available subtitles (with forced) to check if any track is the one I would need. But MakeMKV only extracts the one track seen in the image.
MakeMKV extracted the whole subtitle track, exisiting of the general subtitles and the forced subtitles, too. The part "TRANSSILVIANIEN 1887" (first part) is marked as forced, the rest isn't (I know this because my standalone player displays this part without any subtitle chosen). There is no other subtitle track on the disc which contains this forced part, so I am also quite sure that I picked the right track.

When playing back the disc in standalone player, only "TRANSSIVALIEN 1887" is shown, all the other entries are not shown. When playing back the MKV, all entries are shown.

[Chetwood]

It's only natural to get all the subs when playing back the MKV since the specs only allow for an entire track to be flagged. Which means you have to extract the forced subs only to a separate track which should have worked with MakeMKV when items in the general track really are flagged as forced. The fact that MakeMKV did not do this suggests, the forced item actually is set by navigational commands. Just open the extracted sub in BDSUP2SUB and check if the item is flagged.

[Chetwood]

Some info on this topic here:

forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1625351#post1625351

[Passi]

It's only natural to get all the subs when playing back the MKV since the specs only allow for an entire track to be flagged. Which means you have to extract the forced subs only to a separate track which should have worked with MakeMKV when items in the general track really are flagged as forced. The fact that MakeMKV did not do this suggests, the forced item actually is set by navigational commands. Just open the extracted sub in BDSUP2SUB and check if the item is flagged.

Thank you for the information!
I didn't know yet, that even the forced parts of a general subtitle track could be "forced" by navigational commands. This seems to be the case for Van Helsing, as BDSup2Sub doesn't show any forced flag for the extracted track, as you already assumed.

Ok, I understand the problem now. Is there any solution to get a subtitle track containing only the forced elements, without having to manually edit/select those?

[Chetwood]

I have no idea. Gonna check my BDs for subs like that, I think a friend of mine owns Van Helsing.

[Passi]

Ok, for now I just rip these discs without subtitle.

I noticed that in fact only three discs are affected:
- Van Helsing
- Serenity
- The Mummy (1)

I'm not sure about Serenity and The Mummy. Would be possible that they don't have any forced subtitle track.

All other discs have a normal forced subtitle track, it was only harder as usual to identify the correct track.

Thanks,
Pascal

[Romansh]

When you watch the movie in a Blu-ray player, can you check the relevant scenes with just the forced subtitles vs. the regular, full subtitle track? I wonder if the text font is the same…

[Chetwood]

I've just tested it, the font is identical.

[Romansh]

I've just tested it, the font is identical.

Van Helsing borrowed from your friend?

[Passi]

Yes, the font is identical.
In case of Van Hesling I guess it would be correct to assume that all forced parts are written in uppercase letters. But you cannot be sure about this, you'd have to watch the whole film to check if there is any other force part..

[Chetwood]

Van Helsing borrowed from your friend?

Yep. I simply ripped the entire BD to disk with DVDfab and extracted the PGS with TSMuxer.

In case of Van Hesling I guess it would be correct to assume that all forced parts are written in uppercase letters. But you cannot be sure about this, you'd have to watch the whole film to check if there is any other force part..

See for yourselves: I've uploaded a 30 sec. clip from the beginning that contains items 1 (forced) and 2 (not forced) of the German sub as well as the sub track. The names of locations in the movie are hardcoded into the picture in English but the German translations are all caps forced subs.

sendspace.com/file/s37sw4

Password is the name of the tool we all use.