Forced subtitle label

[Ghostm]

I really love this software, and i know some people just select forced subs so if they ever see subs they know there forced tracks, but some of us also select all english subtitles, and i like subtitles for some movies with difficult accents or low volume, and its a little infuriating it pumps out all subtitles with the same label. Any other software i have used (blurip, eac3togui, ect...) will label a forced subtitle output file as forced. Ie.... "Forced (English)"

So if i am using a program like xbmc, or any program right now for example i am remuxing the movie 30 days of night for example. It has 3 english tracks (I actually think one is a duplicate but I cant do anything about that, its how the movie was authored). In one of those tracks is forced sub flag.

So what i am left with is 4 tracks that all just say english, even though through trial and error number 2 was the forced track but i shouldnt need to fiddle through tracks to figure out which one was forced.

I just dont understand why their is no label that the outputted subtitle track is forced, it would then be very easy to identify and let the user know this track is forced when they are playing the file in their player of choice.

And perhaps if you could also have the option to make forced subtitle files the first subtitle file output or rather the default subtitle track to futher make it easier, and require less manual fiddling and searching for users during playback. In many software players it defaults to the default track, or defaults to the first subtitle track, i think everyone would like the very important forced track to always be the default/first track if its present. Especially if you have wife and kids who are watching something and are not going to think to flick through subtitle files to find a forced track.

[mike admin]

This is true, as of now subtitle tracks don't have a name, only language. Request noted, but for now you can give tracks name manually (if you enable expert mode in preferences).

[Chetwood]

And perhaps if you could also have the option to make forced subtitle files the first subtitle file output or rather the default subtitle track

Can already be done using conversion profiles.

In many software players it defaults to the default track, or defaults to the first subtitle track

If the file is muxed/flagged properly which depends on you but is not that easy.

[paulster]

Mike

It would be great to have a default, like English or English (forced) as an option. It can be quite a job to name them manually if you're retaining them all.

[Chetwood]

I just dont understand why there is no label that the outputted subtitle track is forced

Because there are (at least) three methods for forced subs:

1. a separate stream that only has forced subs
2. a separate stream that has only forced subs but is not flagged (subs are turned on by navigational commands)
3. a general stream that has several items which are flagged as forced.

As Mike mentioned in another thread, he has to parse the entire stream to determine which items are forced. That's why he has a checkbox for 'forced' below each stream. Unfortunately this does not appear to work in 100% of the cases.

It can be quite a job to name them manually if you're retaining them all.

Sure, but how would you do it automatically when the BD's authoring does not provide any info on the nature of the sub? Or are there any flags that denote

- a "regular" sub
- a forced sub (apparently yes, but see above)
- a sub for the Hearing Impaired
- a director's comments sub?

So far I'm using a conversion profiles to put German forced subs first but this stands and falls with the forced subs being detected properly.

[paulster]

In answer to your question if you generate a non-forced stream for, say, Spanish subtitles then name it 'Spanish'.

If you generate (which MakeMKV does) a stream for, say, Portugese forced subs then name it 'Portuguese (forced)'.

Simple.

Granted, you'd still have to go back through your unforced tracks afterwards to tweak the names for SDH tracks, commentary tracks, etc., and you may have the odd forced one that ends up not being labelled as forced because the subs themselves were never flagged, but it would be a whole lot more useful and less time-consuming than it is currently to name the tracks.

[Chetwood]

but it would be a whole lot more useful and less time-consuming than it is currently to name the tracks.

So how about adding placeholders to the conversion profiles for subs (and audio)

%L: language
%F: encoding format

which results in "German/VobSub" or "English/Lossless" or something?

[mike admin]

but it would be a whole lot more useful and less time-consuming than it is currently to name the tracks.

So how about adding placeholders to the conversion profiles for subs (and audio)

%L: language
%F: encoding format

which results in "German/VobSub" or "English/Lossless" or something?

This is a great suggestion. Track name templates will be the next feature for conversion profiles.

[paulster]

Add one to mark whether a track is forced as well as these and that'll be really useful.

[Ghostm]

And perhaps if you could also have the option to make forced subtitle files the first subtitle file output or rather the default subtitle track

Can already be done using conversion profiles.

In many software players it defaults to the default track, or defaults to the first subtitle track

If the file is muxed/flagged properly which depends on you but is not that easy.

For number 1 could you share what profile to use or what to add?


For number 2, I am aware of all 3 methods, we could go deeper into this if you want.

For instance anothereac3togui for seperate subtitle tracks that are forced had the option of "if the subtitle file is so many percent smaller then the main track assumed its forced" that worked quite well, I ended up with a setting of about 8 percent and it never failed me, but its not fool proof all the time, the 8 percent was chosen due to ronin which had many forced subtitles, but this setting would also help.

We could also go one step further like mkvmerge and also ask instead of simply outputting the forced subtitle file just as the default track, to also mark the entire forced subtitle file as a forced track like mkvmerge.

That way if your using a program like xbmc (which can now detect forced subtitle pgs files after some of us worked to have it accepted recently, but this way would also be more fool proof) it would automatically have that forced stream turned on in your player as well, just another nifty feature even though it xbmc can now detect forced pgs subtitles, maybe not every program can.


By the way your number 3 in your post you linked to i cant say i have encountered that issue in blurip, im not sure if makemkv can work similar, star wars a new hope is a big one where I specifically tested that since forced SDH director commentary was included in the forced stream itself, for the EU version anyway, and it spit out the movie forced subtitles without the forced SDH director commentary.

To be honest i have no idea how Eac3to did it, blurip is basically eac3to, and mkvmerge into a front end program. Starwars a new hope EU track 28 (i think if i remember correctly) has forced movie subtitles, mixed in forced sdh subtitles and director commentary as well. I remember i played the bdmv folder in xbmc, and set it to the forced track, and it was bringing up the forced movie tracks like jaba the hut, and greedo as it should. But it was also displaying forced subtitles not part of the movie like comments from george lucas, and SDH subtitles like Music playing....

So i remuxed it with blurip, and it did infact spit out only the forced movie subtitles, I still dont know how. Xbmc forced pgs subtitle implementation noticed forced tracks in that stream besides the movie, but somehow eac3to (blurip) weeded those out and put out only the movie forced subtitles.

[Ghostm]

Add one to mark whether a track is forced as well as these and that'll be really useful.

Agreed I love to manually double check my subtitle listings for a movie before i watch and the forced label reassures me its on the correct track.

[Ghostm]

Sure, but how would you do it automatically when the BD's authoring does not provide any info on the nature of the sub? Or are there any flags that denote

- a "regular" sub
- a forced sub (apparently yes, but see above)
- a sub for the Hearing Impaired
- a director's comments sub?

So far I'm using a conversion profiles to put German forced subs first but this stands and falls with the forced subs being detected properly.

Well makemkv can detect forced subtitles in a track when its marked as forced, hence it outputs forced subtitle files if it detects a forced flag in that stream.

So forced flag=forced subtitle label like the other programs i mentioned do.

As in my other post (which will hopefully appear as its currently being moderator approved) i discussed other ways of dealing with seperate track forced subs. However this is getting off topic, this label is not a solution for every type of forced subtitle out their but it definately helps identify the tracks for the user that makemkv can currently detect as forced. I dont know how just spitting out a duplicate english subtitle heading helps when makemkv has already detected its forced but does not pass that information on to the end user who is viewing the movie.

Its not a be all solution for every subtitle type, but it does allow the user an easy way to identify them based on what makemkv can identify...but it does not make it any easier for the user when we dont even know what track makemkv has found as forced.

[Chetwood]

The problem remains: a lot of forced subs aren't flagged so manual work is necessary.

[Ghostm]

I addressed this and realize this, I dont know where my post went or why it was not posted, any time i tried to quote you, it seemed to be pending moderator approval and i have no idea why it was not posted.

And my point was you still need manual intervention or use a different program for some subtitles, but labeling them as forced at least helps where makemkv can currently detect them.

Eac3togui solved every type of forced subtitle from 1-3 (no longer developed or supported anymore so it does not work). Number 2 (seperate tracks not flagged as forced) was addressed by eac3togui, for number two it had the option "If subtitle file (in your language you specify) is X amount of times smaller then the main subtitle track assume it is forced" this worked well for me and never failed me, it is not 100% fool proof but it never did not work for those blurays i remuxed. I lowered the value to 9 times smaller since the ronin bluray had a seperate track with alot of foreign dialogue. Now eac3togui used eac3to, bdsup2sub, and mkv merge, different programs then makemkv, but im just saying it can be done or has been addressed before with other software.

As for your number 3, star wars a new hope EU bluray has a general track with forced movie subtitles and forced SDH director comments muxed into it, somehow blurip (using eac3to) filtered these out, im still not sure how. I just checked it tonight. I remuxed it with make mkv, and the forced subtitle file included subtitles such as "lucas" "Music playing" and director commentary. Somehow eac3to spit out only the forced movie subtitles, and filtered out the forced subtitles, again im unsure how but it can be done, all 3 of your concerns can be addressed, it has been done in other programs.

Regardless my concern again was simply if makemkv see's a forced subtitle file has a forced track, at least try to help the end user out and identify it as such, its not a be all solution, but it does help the end user out where it can.


It would also be nice if like mkv merge, if makemkv detects a forced track, to flag the entire stream as forced like mkvmerge so its automatically selected and turned on in programs like xbmc, but thats just an additional suggestion, currently with blurip if it finds a forced track (using eac3to), it outputs a forced only subtitle file and then flags the entire stream is forced with mkv merge, so when you play it in xbmc subtitles are turned on, and the forced file is automatically active and selected for the end user. Alot of us have wives and children who dont understand these things.

At this point for number 2 and 3, i will have to use a seperate program for number 3, and number 2 since another eac3to gui is no longer active, will have to refer to the avsforum forced subtitle list.

[Chetwood]

any time i tried to quote you, it seemed to be pending moderator approval and i have no idea why it was not posted.

Beats me, why I was moderated, there were no swear words and I even forgot I was in the moderation queue so I posted something similar again. Oh well.

It would also be nice if like mkv merge, if makemkv detects a forced track, to flag the entire stream as forced like mkvmerge so its automatically selected and turned on in programs like xbmc

Which would require additional logic for people like me who always rip both English and German tracks. So if I were to watch Avatar in english with english subs, having two forced tracks automatically flagged as forced might cause problems.