Home theater projector playback degradation

[bubbascant]

I have burned about 70 movies so far (mostly Blu Ray) using MakeMKV and have been testing playback quality in the media room. I have a Sony projector with a 110" screen. Movies burned are added to my NAS and then I add them to the Plex library. Playback is done on either Roku or Apple TV using Plex. The movies are burned in original quality yet the quality is downgraded from 1080p to 480. The Sony projector is 325ES and is about 18 months old. Playback of streaming services or Direct TV is fine. Apple or Roku show the same degradation of video.

Sony support says to check the manual on page 53 because exact matches have to occur because projectors are much more finicky than TVs.

The following table shows the signals and video formats which you can project using this unit.
When a signal other than the preset signal shown below is input, the picture may not be
displayed properly.


The media room uses excellent quality materials when it was built about 18 months ago. Wiring should be such that the length shouldn't matter. Plus it seems odd/frustrating that streaming platforms or DirecTV or blu ray movies in the player are all fine. It's only movies burned with MakeMKV. Also, I see that movies burned with MakeMKV are showing a frame rate of about 23.9 and not at 30 or whatever. I am unsure as to how I can adjust any settings in MakeMKV (I don't think it's possible).

What am I missing? I would sure appreciate the help. I have tried a number of different settings in Roku or Apple TV related video playback, as well as adjusting/testing in Plex program itself but nothing is working. The quality isn't "awful" but it is definitely not original. Playback on my 65" Sony TV using Roku is excellent, looks great. Same for TVs in other rooms using either Apple or Roku. It's only in the media room.

[dcoke22]

Also, I see that movies burned with MakeMKV are showing a frame rate of about 23.9 and not at 30 or whatever. I am unsure as to how I can adjust any settings in MakeMKV (I don't think it's possible).

23.976 fps or 29.97 fps is the precise frame rate for most things in North America. The short explanation is when the color TV standard was introduced, they jammed the color information in the signal in such a way that black and white TVs would ignore it and the whole thing would be imperceptibly slower. That decision from 1953 is still with us today.

NTSC is the broadcast TV standard in North America. How it interacts with 24 fps movies is called 3:2 pulldown.

[dcoke22]

The Sony projector manual: https://www.sony.com/electronics/suppor ... 11341M.pdf

[bubbascant]

I noticed on a playback settings and technical details for a particular movie burned with MakeMKV and it shows this.

APPLE TV device unit:

Playback settings -
Quality - Convert to 480. This is checked. The other three options in the Quality column are Play original quality, Convert automatically and Show all. No matter what I choose, it keeps bringing it back to 480. On the playback screen during the movie I see it says SD480. When I make a different choice, I see the screen go black for a few seconds and then it's back to 480.

Technical Details -
Source: Transcode (my synology server)
Quality - 720x404 @1.9 Mbps
Video - Transcode (H264 (HW) - H264 (HW)
Audio - Transcode (AAC - AAC) (I've seen Opus - Opus on some movies)
Player - AVPlayer - The enhanced video player cannot be used when automatically adjust quality is enabled (Should this be enabled or not?)

Transcode Reason - Not enough bandwidth for directo play of this item. Required bandwidth (i.e.) is 5901kbps and only 2000kbps is available.

App cannot direct play this item. Direct play is disabled.


ROKU device unit:

Playback settings -
To the right of this it shows "limited quality 2mbps"
Then Quality - 28.1 Mpps (or whatever for the movie)
Direct Play - auto
Allow Direct Stream - this box is checked
Burn subtitles - Automatic
Allow DTS-HD - is unchecked

Streaming -
Subtitles - off
Audio - English (DTS-HD MA 5.1)
Video - 1080p (H.264)

I've had technical support with my internet provider and it is working perfectly. I have 1 G of speed. They tested a number of ways and all that is working as it should. Quality of playback using streaming services (Netflix, etc.) is fine as is DirecTV as well as playing a blu ray disc in the player. It is only from playing burned movies via Plex off my NAS on either Roku or Apple device.

Sony tech support says I need to match exact match as per page 53 of the manual.

I'd love to get your help to fix this though it is probably outside the scope of MakeMKV. I should note that the burned movies play excellent quality on my 65" Sony TV so the software is working fine. I can't find any way to match what Sony support says so I'm frustrated. I have a very nice Sony projector with a 110" screen so I should be getting nice quality.

Thak you in advance.

[dcoke22]

Transcode Reason - Not enough bandwidth for directo play of this item. Required bandwidth (i.e.) is 5901kbps and only 2000kbps is available.

App cannot direct play this item. Direct play is disabled.

I interpret that to mean your Plex server thinks there's not enough bandwidth between the Plex server and the AppleTV feeding your projector. That means your home network, not your internet connection, is the likely culprit.

You mentioned that movies look fine on your TV. Presumably that means playing them via Plex on the TV. If so, that would imply the network between the Plex server (presumably running on your NAS) and whatever player you're using on the TV (maybe the Plex app built into the TV itself) has plenty of bandwidth.

That also implies it is probably the network connection of the player (either the AppleTV or the Roku) more than it is the network connection at the Plex server. Likely candidates are maybe a bad ethernet cable or poor wifi at that location.

I suppose the simplest thing to start with is to run a speed test using the SpeedTest.net app on the AppleTV and the Roku at your projector.

[bubbascant]

I interpret that to mean your Plex server thinks there's not enough bandwidth between the Plex server and the AppleTV feeding your projector. That means your home network, not your internet connection, is the likely culprit.

You mentioned that movies look fine on your TV. Presumably that means playing them via Plex on the TV. If so, that would imply the network between the Plex server (presumably running on your NAS) and whatever player you're using on the TV (maybe the Plex app built into the TV itself) has plenty of bandwidth.

ME: Family room is a 65" Sony 4K TV and main bedroom is a 55" Samsung and Plex is used via Roku device (not a Roku TV) on both TVs (Roku Ultra recent models). Movies are playing back in original quality I burned them in using MakeMKV. But on my Sony 325ES projector shooting to a 110" Elite screen, it is downgrading to 480 on Roku and 780 on Apple - both reporting the bandwidth issues. Says "not enough bandwidth for direct play of this item. Required bandwidth is XXXXX (depending on the movie) kbps and only 2000 kbps is available. The main bedroom is connected via WiFi while Family room is ethernet.

That also implies it is probably the network connection of the player (either the AppleTV or the Roku) more than it is the network connection at the Plex server. Likely candidates are maybe a bad ethernet cable or poor wifi at that location.

ME: The Roku and Apple are both connected via Ethernet. Internet speed tests varies slightly with each test but the one I just ran is 771.65 mbps download and 926.03 mbps upload. I used speedtest.net and have run it three times today and the range is pretty close to this.

I suppose the simplest thing to start with is to run a speed test using the SpeedTest.net app on the AppleTV and the Roku at your projector.

ME: I see comments about port forwarding issues, firewall settings, and disabling Relay as things done aside from bandwidth. Seems odd that bandwidth would not be an issue with the TVs but is in the media room with the projector. I've tried everything. Aside from Sony support saying settings have to match what's on page 53 and 54 of the manual for movies to play proper quality, I'm lost. And it seems odd that a nice, very new projector would be so stringent on that. Netflix, Hulu, MAX, and other streams are fine as is DirecTV but movies burned get dropped in quality because of bandwidth. Makes no sense.

As an aside, I've rebooted the devices several times as well as my NAS and computer and changed different settings on Plex or Roku/Apple units themselves over the past few weeks but NOTHING is working to keep original playback in the media room.

I sure hope someone can help me out. Thank you in advance!

[dcoke22]

ME: The Roku and Apple are both connected via Ethernet. Internet speed tests varies slightly with each test but the one I just ran is 771.65 mbps download and 926.03 mbps upload. I used speedtest.net and have run it three times today and the range is pretty close to this.

That implies both the AppleTV and the Roku have fast, stable network connections. That also means I'm quickly running out of obvious suggestions for what might be going on.

Is the network in your projector room on a different subnet than the rest of your house? That would be an uncommon home network setup, but not impossible.

Plex: Server Settings – Bandwidth and Transcoding Limits

When a Plex server sees a client on the same subnet as itself, it treats the client as 'local' and does not apply any bandwidth limits to the content it serves that client. If it sees a client on a different subnet, it treats that client as 'remote' and applies the bandwidth limits as described in the article above.

What is the 'limit remote video quality' value set to on your Plex server?

[bubbascant]

Thank you so much for your reply. I'm not sure if the projector room is on a different subnet than the rest of the house. Can you tell me how I can check for that? I can ask my A/V guy but I'm sure it's probably a pretty easy thing to do?

The setup here is probably more unusual than a normal home user (but not unique to many doing more sophisticated setups). Do you know how I can check whether it's different? My A/V guy set a good deal of this up but I can log into my Modem from the internet provider, I can log into my Araknis router and I can log into my Luxul.

When a Plex server sees a client on the same subnet as itself, it treats the client as 'local' and does not apply any bandwidth limits to the content it serves that client. If it sees a client on a different subnet, it treats that client as 'remote' and applies the bandwidth limits as described in the article above.


ME: It seems to me that you're exactly right here. Some settings or variable(s) is likely happening. It is obviously seeing a client on a different subnet so it treats that client as 'remote' and applies the bandwidth limits. As I'm the only one using the NAS and playing music or movies from it, I don't need to worry about anyone else.

What is the 'limit remote video quality' value set to on your Plex server?

ME: It is set to Unlimited. I never changed this and it's been this way since I got things set up.

Plex: Server Settings – Bandwidth and Transcoding Limits

As to bandwidth and transcoding limits, the messages say "not enough bandwidth for DIRECT PLAY of this item." Should direct play be selected or disabled for this to help or is this not anything to do with things? I'm guessing it's as you suggest and it's a network setting or setup. I'm a bit confused as to what to put into the box in Plex related to what the link you said covers. You saw the speed I'm getting so am I supposed to put internet upload speed to 880 mbps or just what? I am confused by that. Also unsure on the Quality settings. Right now Video Quality is set to Maximum. I never adjusted this so it is by default I believe. What should this be set to? Any other settings need adjusting? In Apple TV device, Local quality is set to Original and Remote quality is set to 12 Mbps 4K. I've adjusted in this area seeing if that might help but it didn't so I can put to Original or some other setting.

In my Araknis router I have port forwarding set up for my Synology three ways with them all listed with the same IP. Two have TCP protocol, one says "Synology", one says Synology HTTPS and the other has protocol of BOTH and says Plex NAS. I don't recall how or why I set them up in this way but it's how I got things working. Everything has been working fine except for the current issue we're trying to solve. I also have static IPs set up for several things including the NAS, Sonos amps, Roku's, Apple TV devices and so forth.

As for testing the speed, you say the speed isn't the issue which I agree with. The Playback options in Roku show Limited Quality 2 Mbps (and it's font is yellow). I don't know how to change this. It says underneath when I'm in this box "A direct connection to the server is not available. Learn more at plex.tv/relay." I tried to see what I can do but when I disabled the Relay under the Network in Plex, I was unable to get any connection to the server for movies or music. I had to re-enable it to bring everything back (music and movies). Interestingly, on my iPhone I have PLEX app as well as PlexAmp. White the Relay was disabled, the movies would still play via Plex app. Does that help figure this out?

Sorry for the lengthy reply. I deeply appreciate the help.

[dcoke22]

As to bandwidth and transcoding limits, the messages say "not enough bandwidth for DIRECT PLAY of this item." Should direct play be selected or disabled for this to help or is this not anything to do with things?

Having Direct Play enabled is the ideal scenario. When Plex can take advantage of direct play, it means that the server is sending the file in your library to the client completely unmodified. This is the 'highest quality' possible. On a more technical level, it means your client is capable of playing the original, unmodified file. If the client can't do this for some reason, then the server transcodes the file on the fly to something 'lower quality' that the client can play.

Plex Streaming Media: Direct Play and Direct Stream

In my Araknis router I have port forwarding set up for my Synology three ways with them all listed with the same IP. Two have TCP protocol, one says "Synology", one says Synology HTTPS and the other has protocol of BOTH and says Plex NAS. I don't recall how or why I set them up in this way but it's how I got things working.

Typically one sets up port forwarding so services hosted inside one's home can be accessed outside one's home. I would expect you can take your phone to your favorite coffee shop, open up the Plex app, and watch something hosted on your Plex server. Plex calls this Remote Access.

As for testing the speed, you say the speed isn't the issue which I agree with. The Playback options in Roku show Limited Quality 2 Mbps (and it's font is yellow). I don't know how to change this. It says underneath when I'm in this box "A direct connection to the server is not available. Learn more at plex.tv/relay." I tried to see what I can do but when I disabled the Relay under the Network in Plex, I was unable to get any connection to the server for movies or music. I had to re-enable it to bring everything back (music and movies). Interestingly, on my iPhone I have PLEX app as well as PlexAmp. White the Relay was disabled, the movies would still play via Plex app. Does that help figure this out?

That is an interesting piece of data. Inside your home, you should not need the services of a Plex Relay server.

Plex: Accessing a Server through Relay

From that article:

Limitations
When relaying a connection through us, there are limitations for the streaming qualities you can use:
Free users are limited to 1 Mbps maximum for streams
Plex Pass subscribers are limited to 2 Mbps maximum for streams
If the content you’re trying to stream has a higher bitrate, then your Plex Media Server will need to transcode the content down to fit the limitation.

If the Plex clients in your projector room are using a relay server, assuming you're a Plex Pass subscriber, the bandwidth is limited to 2Mbps. That seems like the scenario happening in your case.

Whatever is happening in your home network that is making the projector room Plex clients use the relay is likely the source of your troubles. I assume your Araknis router is plugged into your ISP's modem and makes up the backbone of your home network. I'm guessing whatever Luxul product you have is providing some projector room specific functionality and has (probably accidentally) walled off at least the ethernet network in there from the rest of your home network.

Depending on how the wifi is setup in your home, it might be interesting to at least temporarily unplug the ethernet from either the AppleTV or the Roku and connect it to wifi and see what happens. Additionally a good test is, depending on the layout of your home, a temporary 50 ft (or 100 ft) ethernet cable to plug one of those streaming boxes into your home's 'normal' network to bypass whatever is happening to the network in the projector room. If on wifi or a different ethernet allows streaming from your Plex server to happen as you expect (and without needing a Relay server) then I think you can know what the source of your trouble is. The fix for that is probably beyond the scope of this forum. At least, I don't have any experience with Luxul.

[bubbascant]

Typically one sets up port forwarding so services hosted inside one's home can be accessed outside one's home. I would expect you can take your phone to your favorite coffee shop, open up the Plex app, and watch something hosted on your Plex server. Plex calls this Remote Access.

ME: I have remote access setup so Plex is fully accessible outside my network.

That is an interesting piece of data. Inside your home, you should not need the services of a Plex Relay server. Whatever is happening in your home network that is making the projector room Plex clients use the relay is likely the source of your troubles.

ME: Perhaps this has to do with the 'remote' and 'local' issue Synology is having so it's limiting to the 2 mbps quality limit? Or is that unrelated? When I disabled Plex Relay, the movies and music were not available though I could play a movie I burned via the PLEX app on my iPhone when Relay was disabled. To get movies and music back up so I could view them in Plex using Roku or Apple device, I had to enable it again. (MY A/V guy has some input below).

I assume your Araknis router is plugged into your ISP's modem and makes up the backbone of your home network.

ME: Yes, Araknis is plugged into my ISP modem.

I'm guessing whatever Luxul product you have is providing some projector room specific functionality and has (probably accidentally) walled off at least the ethernet network in there from the rest of your home network.

ME: It's possible. I have gotten several exchanges with my A/V installer who built the media room (second one for me, but in a different house) so I'll share what he said after this excellent feedback here. Based on his last feedback, I don't think doing the last suggestion you made would be necessary (at least not yet).

I asked him about the subnet:
Your theater room is on a different VLAN (not subnet)…kind of same thing in this regard to the fact Synology is likely seeing a different IP Range and limiting bandwidth? Anyway to turn that off?

I asked him to clarify and he said:
** I mean turn off the sinology bandwidth limiting when it sees a different IP range…or can you put specific IP addresses in the sinology that it will know as local (reach out to sinology about that)

I'll get with Synology and see.

Here's what he added:

As you know…we put your theater on a different VLAN to keep the Control4 Communication from messing up the Sonos Communication. We left Sonos on your main network with the Synology Server. The theater equipment is on a different vlan.
If I put the apple TV and the Roku on a different vlan than I will not be able to control them with the Control4 System.
If you want me to put them(ATV/Roku) (or one of them) on the main VLAN and use their respective OEM remotes…then we can do that.
It does make sense what they are saying that Synology NAS is limiting the bandwidth..does not make good sense otherwise.


I told him I never use the Control4 remote to control Roku or Apple device (things like Fast forwarding, rewind and so forth) so that is fine.

He added further:
What I can do is temporarily move one source (roku or apple TV) to the same VLAN as the Synology and see if it fixes the issue? That will tell you we at least have the issue nailed down before we get too far. It is possible I could move the Roku over to main vlan and still be able to control it with Control4….

I asked him:
Would any of the port forwarding or static IP addresses for Synology be an issue? Any changes to that end of things? Would contacting Synology support to help in some way related to this? I'm sure I'm way off the mark but thought I would ask. I'd like to see how, or if getting Synology to see the right IP range help?
His reply:
**Not related to port forwarding or static IP Address. The Synology is on one IP Range and the Roku/Apple TV on another…with everything you found out…I assume that is the issue. You can’t change the Synology IP Range or you will have Sonos issues.

That's what I have to this point. Sonos has been a real issue for me. I have several Sonos amps, Move, Roam, Arc, and the playback has been problematic for over two years. Sonos said to put Sonos on it's own which is why he did that but I'm hopeful that I can get this resolved so that Plex (Synology?) sees me as the local client, while also allowing me to access my stuff when I'm away from home. I assume that's what Remote access is about?

I appreciate the input I've received. Hopefully I'm close to getting this fixed up. Who knew it would be so difficult! THANKS!

[dcoke22]

A separate VLAN would explain why your projector room clients need to use the Plex Relay service to find your server. It is this use of the Relay service that's limiting the bandwidth.

Getting a Plex client on one vlan to use a plex server on a different vlan will require some configuration.

Reddit: Plex access across isolated vlans

Plex: What network ports do I need to allow through my firewall?

Hopefully your A/V installer can use the info at those two links to configure your network to allow Plex to work across your vlans while keeping your Sonos stuff separate.

[bubbascant]

That's excellent advice. I ended up getting with Synology and explaining the issue and they said that their NAS doesn't work well in the setup I was in. My A/V guy had put Sonos and Control4 on a VLAN isolated (best I can explain it) so Synology saw my Plex as not being local. All my A/V guy ended up doing was changing this:

Went to your Managed Network Switch in the Media Room.
I figured out which port had which device and changed the VLAN on the two Ports for VLAN 2 to be VLAN 1 (Main Home network sonos/nas)

He then put my Apple TV device and Roku device on different ports. It didn't take him but a few minutes and now the problem has been solved. I'm getting full, original quality of my movies I've burned instead of downgrading to less than half the quality. Both devices are playing things perfectly now. The advice received here along with some unsuccessful things along the way (though the effort was appreciated) helped me get this fixed.

I thank you so much for the great input.

[dcoke22]

Glad it is all working now.