Subtitles

[mike_mgoblue]

Usually there are movies where the Subtitles are "Hardcoded" into the MKV files. But, there are still plenty of movies where you need to turn the Subtitles "On" with some form of "Forced" or "Alternate" selection for the Subtitles. For those movies with "Forced" or "Alternate" types of Subtitles, I usually use Handbrake to "Burn In" the Subtitles. This essentially makes it so the Subtitles are then "Hardcoded" into the movie. This is normally a solution for 99% of the movies out there. But, I recently experienced a problem with the movie Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings.

I initially used MakeMKV to download the file. I then used Handbrake to "Burn In" the third Subtitles track, which is only the "Forced" type of "Foreign" language. In other words, you see the English words without Subtitles, while you see the foreign words with Subtitles. In the movie Shang-Chi, there is a LOT of foreign language - far more than any other movie I have ever watched.

While watching Shang-Chi with the "Burned In" Subtitles, I wanted to turn on the Subtitles from Track 1, which allowed all the words - both English and foreign languages - to be seen on the screen. In the past, this would either cause the Subtitles of the Foreign Languages to "Overlap" without any problems, or it would cause a second set of smaller subtitles to appear slightly above the other subtitles in a way that didn't cause problems. But with Shang-Chi, within the first minute of the movie there were visible problems. I will explain.

From about 40 seconds to 90 seconds, you could see problems with the way the Subtitles from the activated Track 1 worked with the Subtitles from Track 3 that had been "Burned In." You ended up not being able to read either of them, because of the overlaps. This meant the "Burned In" Subtitles were helpful, because you didn't need to turn them on. But, the Subtitles from Track 1 were essentially useless due to the fact that there were many times when problems occurred because of the overlaps that blocked each other out.

This makes me wonder if there is a way to make the original MKV version have some form of "Activated" Track 3 rather than needing to "Turn On" the "Subtitles." The reason this is a problem is because I have a couple family members who aren't good with computers and don't know how to use these apps to turn on "Subtitles." The thought of turning Subtitles "On" is not something that crosses their mind, because when you watch those movies on Blu-ray the Subtitles are automatically turned on for the Subtitles.

I tried using the app called "MKVToolNix GUI" to select an option that seemed like it might make it so Track 3 would become "Forced" and activated automatically, but that did not occur.

Does anyone know a way to make it so the MKV file for a Subtitles track such as Track #3 with Shang-Chi could be always activated automatically without needing to turn the "Subtitles On" in an app such as MPC-BE, MPC-HC, VLC, or others?

[Sunoo]

There is the “Forced” flag you can set in MKVToolNix on the Header tab, which some players recognize. That’s what I use on Plex at least.

[Woodstock]

In addition to the "forced" flag, I've found that some players rely on the "default" flag as well. I put together a short batch file that sets both, but I only run it AFTER I run the file through handbrake, and make sure that the subtitles are in the "correct order" for the script.

A lot of foreign series mix up the order of subtitles, and handbrake lets me put them in "the correct (for me) order". Then mkvtoolnix sets the flags correctly.

Code: Select all

c:\MKVTools\MKVToolNix\mkvpropedit.exe %1 -e track:s1 --set flag-default=1 --set flag-forced=1 --edit info --set "title=%~n1"

[Sunoo]

Worth noting that if you don’t want to re-encode with Handbrake, you can change the order with a remux in MKVToolNix. You can also change the order before ripping in MakeMKV by changing the order weight for the track.

[mike_mgoblue]

Worth noting that if you don’t want to re-encode with Handbrake, you can change the order with a remux in MKVToolNix. You can also change the order before ripping in MakeMKV by changing the order weight for the track.

How do you use MakeMKV to "change the order weight for the track" with the Subtitles prior to ripping them with MakeMKV?

[mike_mgoblue]

In addition to the "forced" flag, I've found that some players rely on the "default" flag as well. I put together a short batch file that sets both, but I only run it AFTER I run the file through handbrake, and make sure that the subtitles are in the "correct order" for the script.

A lot of foreign series mix up the order of subtitles, and handbrake lets me put them in "the correct (for me) order". Then mkvtoolnix sets the flags correctly.

Code: Select all

c:\MKVTools\MKVToolNix\mkvpropedit.exe %1 -e track:s1 --set flag-default=1 --set flag-forced=1 --edit info --set "title=%~n1"

I tried using MKVToolNix to make it so Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings was changed to "Forced" for that particular Subtitles Track #3, which has only the foreign language. Nothing changed, though. The Subtitles do not appear in the apps such as MPC-BE, MPC-HC, VLC, and others unless the "Subtitles" are turned "On." It has been like this with every other movie I have used, too. I have never used Plex, though.

[Sunoo]

How do you use MakeMKV to "change the order weight for the track" with the Subtitles prior to ripping them with MakeMKV?

Select the subtitle track, then on the right side panel there is a drop-down below the folder you are ripping to. Change that to “Order weight”, default is usually 90, but it can be any number, once ripped it will be sorted lowest number to highest. It also works on audio tracks.

[dcoke22]

In playing around with VLC 3.0.14 (Mac, Intel) today I found that it showed which ever subtitle track was set to Forced or Forced & Default. I was experimenting with a movie that had two subtitle tracks. It didn't matter if it was track 1 or track 2.

I've never used MPC-BE or MPC-HC.

Can you verify that you set the subtitle track as you expect? MediaInfo is a handy tool for this task.

Code: Select all

Text #1
ID                                       : 3
Format                                   : PGS
Codec ID                                 : S_HDMV/PGS
Codec ID/Info                            : Picture based subtitle format used on BDs/HD-DVDs
Duration                                 : 6 min 14 s
Bit rate                                 : 13.0 kb/s
Frame rate                               : 0.230 FPS
Count of elements                        : 86
Stream size                              : 593 KiB (0%)
Title                                    : Forced Subtitles
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : No
Forced                                   : No

Text #2
ID                                       : 4
Format                                   : PGS
Codec ID                                 : S_HDMV/PGS
Codec ID/Info                            : Picture based subtitle format used on BDs/HD-DVDs
Duration                                 : 2 h 12 min
Bit rate                                 : 73.7 kb/s
Frame rate                               : 0.794 FPS
Count of elements                        : 6318
Stream size                              : 69.9 MiB (2%)
Title                                    : SDH Subtitles
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : Yes
Forced                                   : Yes

[mike_mgoblue]

In playing around with VLC 3.0.14 (Mac, Intel) today I found that it showed which ever subtitle track was set to Forced or Forced & Default. I was experimenting with a movie that had two subtitle tracks. It didn't matter if it was track 1 or track 2.

I've never used MPC-BE or MPC-HC.

Can you verify that you set the subtitle track as you expect? MediaInfo is a handy tool for this task.

Code: Select all

Text #1
ID                                       : 3
Format                                   : PGS
Codec ID                                 : S_HDMV/PGS
Codec ID/Info                            : Picture based subtitle format used on BDs/HD-DVDs
Duration                                 : 6 min 14 s
Bit rate                                 : 13.0 kb/s
Frame rate                               : 0.230 FPS
Count of elements                        : 86
Stream size                              : 593 KiB (0%)
Title                                    : Forced Subtitles
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : No
Forced                                   : No

Text #2
ID                                       : 4
Format                                   : PGS
Codec ID                                 : S_HDMV/PGS
Codec ID/Info                            : Picture based subtitle format used on BDs/HD-DVDs
Duration                                 : 2 h 12 min
Bit rate                                 : 73.7 kb/s
Frame rate                               : 0.794 FPS
Count of elements                        : 6318
Stream size                              : 69.9 MiB (2%)
Title                                    : SDH Subtitles
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : Yes
Forced                                   : Yes

I looked at your message here and did some experimenting. I found out some very interesting things through trial and error when watching the movie called "Salt" that has foreign language about ten minutes into the track. In "Salt" MPC-BE clearly shows Subtitle Track #2 ripped from MakeMKV as the "Default" track. In comparison, "Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings" ripped from MakeMKV does not show any "Default" track in MPC-BE.

I used one of the versions of the movie "Salt" I made with MKVToolNixGUI that made it so the foreign language Subtitle Track was set to both "Default" and "Forced." And although this did not achieve anything with MPC-BE, MPC-HC, and several others when Subtitles were set to "Off," it actually DID work for VLC. VLC automatically turned the Subtitles on and "Enabled" them. This means VLC must have fixed this problem with one of their updates since I previously tried in the past. But, this is not even what is interesting yet.

Just for the heck of it, I played the originally downloaded MKV version of the movie Salt in this new VLC. In this version of the MKV file, the Subtitle track #2 that included the foreign languages was a "Default," but was NOT listed as "Forced." Yet, VLC still played this "Default" Subtitle Track #2 with the Foreign languages, even though the Subtitle Track #2 was NOT a "Forced" track! ... So, I was then thinking "Wow! How the heck can that be? How does VLC know how to do that when Subtitles aren't even turned ?"

But then I discovered the answer. It turns out VLC has it pre-set so Subtitles are in fact automatically "Enabled" whenever there is a "Default" Subtitle track. And the "Subtitles" you see are the "Subtitle Track" that is set to the "Default." The factor of "Forced" does not matter at all.

I looked at several other Blu-ray movies where there are no "foreign" languages. The selection of "Subtitles" is automatically set to "Disabled" due to the fact that there is no "Default" Subtitle track in the original MakeMKV version ripped from the Blu-ray.

I then tried using VLC for the Blu-ray called Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings. I was disappointed when VLC did NOT automatically display the Subtitles with foreign language on Track #3 the way VLC automatically DID display the foreign language Subtitles of Track #2 from the movie Salt. I then looked and discovered the difference. When MakeMKV ripped the movie Salt, MakeMKV pre-set Subtitle Track #2 of Salt to "Default." However, when MakeMKV ripped the movie Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings, MakeMKV did NOT pre-set Subtitle Track #3 to "Default." In fact, the original MakeMKV version of Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings did not have any "Default" Subtitle track at all. This is why VLC automatically "Disabled" all Subtitles.

I then tested this further with DVDs that have been ripped using MakeMKV. DVDs are not done accurately the way Blu-rays are. For example, I watched a DVD called "Beverly Hills Ninja" that doesn't have any "foreign" subtitles. VLC did not automatically select "Disabled." Instead, Subtitles were turned on and the first Subtitle Track was automatically selected - which meant all the words in English were being displayed on the screen. This particular Subtitles track where all words in English were displayed was the "Default" track. Therefore, it was necessary to manually turn off the Subtitles with a DVD.

CONCLUSION: Apparently, when watching a Blu-ray, whenever there is a "Default" track for a Subtitle (apparently a track with foreign languages), VCL automatically "Enables" the Subtitles and selects that "Default" Subtitle Track. If you watch a Blu-ray without foreign languages, there is no "Default" Subtitle track at all - which causes VLC to automatically select "Disabled" for Subtitles. This is exactly the same way a Blu-ray player would do things. Unfortunately, there are some movies such as Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings were there are Subtitle tracks dedicated to foreign language, yet MakeMKV does not automatically rip the movie with a "Default" Subtitle track. This means there are no "Subtitles" automatically enabled the way they would be on a Blu-ray player. The solution would be to use MKVToolNixGUI to make it so the Subtitle track with foreign languages is set to "Default." The factor of "Forced" does not matter.

VLC also does not offer precision and accuracy with DVD movies. DVDs seem to select "Default" Subtitle tracks for movies that have all English words. This causes VLC to select the Subtitles of a DVD as "Enabled," because it is "Default." As a result, it is necessary to manually turn off the DVD Subtitles that were automatically Enabled by VLC. The solution would be to make it so the "Default" track is no longer a "Default" track.

These solutions don't work with MPC-BE, MPC-HC and the others. The reason why is because MPC-BE, MPC-HC and the others do not correctly automatically turn off the Subtitles if there is no "Default" track. If you leave Subtitles set to "On," it will appear to work fine when playing a movie where there is a movie with foreign languages are the "Default" Subtitle track. However, when there is a movie that does not have foreign languages and does not have a "Default" Subtitle track, it means the "first" Subtitle track from top to bottom will automatically be selected. This means you will usually be seeing all the English words displayed as Subtitles on the screen - whether it is set as a "Default" or not. In comparison, VLC would only "Enable" the Subtitles if there was a "Default" selected.

I hope this helps everybody out.

[Chetwood]

IIRC VLC playback according to the default flag being set is also dependent on a default language being selected in VLC's settings.