Worklow for Apple 4K 2021 Dolby Vision

[jay-jey]

Hello,

so I have a new Tv and a new Player a Apple TV 4K. So I have read here and other pages but I'm more confused then ever. What I read so far now is that especially Dolby Vision is making Problems. So I hope you cloud give me some advices for a good workflow. And before you advice me to get I Shield: I got the Apple TV for a specific reason. It is SKY here in germany. Apple is the only player how is supported. For the Apple Tv I have also plex and infuse.

First question would be make MKV: rip the disks as an mkv or make a backup of the hole Disk?

2. how can I find out if I have Dolby Vision dual layer or single layer? If I open a mkv in MediaInfo I can see something like this:
Dolby Vision, Version 1.0, dvhe.07.06, BL+EL+RPU, Blu-ray compatible / SMPTE ST 2086, HDR10 compatible
Is this single or dual layer? and

3.To which profile do I need to convert the movie for Plex and Apple TV? And what tools should I use? I found diffrent things here the ones from yusesope or are there newer abd easier ones?

4. is there a way to shrink the files a little bit maybe with ffmpeg? And if yes, which setting are needed?

So my Setup is a Phillips android TV OLED805 and the apple Tv and a Denon AVR750. At PC site I have a AMD 5700G (no dedicated GPU).
My Backround: I'm mechanical engineer and can read some code and can use the command line but I'm not a programmer.
I hope I gave all informations needed. If not let me know.

[ColonelBlimp043]

Dolby Vision is a giant pain in the ass. There are multiple versions (aka profiles) of Dolby Vision, and even within those profiles, there are differing degrees of playback. Unfortunately, the AppleTV will not directly playback Dolby Vision originating from UHD discs.

All UHD discs use Dolby Vision Profile 7, which is dual layer. The first, base layer is standard HDR10. The second layer is known as the "Enhancement layer." Enhancement Layers come in two varieties. Some titles use a so-called "Full Enhancement Layer" aka FEL. A FEL contains dynamic tone mapping metadata (aka "RPU"), as well as residual information that boosts the video bit depth from 10 to 12 bit. Other titles use a so-called "Minimum Enhancement Layer" aka MEL. A MEL only contains the RPU and does not contain any residual information.

The current version of MakeMKV creates .mkv files that retain all of the information stored in the Dolby Vision Enhancement Layer. However, few players are capable of playing back the Enhancement Layer, and even fewer players are capable of decoding the residual color information contained in a FEL.

The AppleTV will not playback any enhancement layer. It is only capable of playing back single layer Dolby Vision, aka Dolby Vision Profile 5 and Dolby Vision Profile 8, which are generally used by streaming sites like Netflix. Plex will trigger the TV's Dolby Vision processing when playing back a Dolby Vision MKV to trick you into thinking you are getting full Dolby Vision playback, but it will actually only decode and playback the base HDR10 layer.

[ColonelBlimp043]

Also, you can look at this thread for ideas on how to convert Dolby Vision Profile 7 to Profile 8, which you may be able to playback with the AppleTV, but it's going to be a chore and it sounds like there are still a lot of bugs to work out.

viewtopic.php?p=115158

[bellboy]

Dolby Vision is a giant pain in the ass. There are multiple versions (aka profiles) of Dolby Vision, and even within those profiles, there are differing degrees of playback. Unfortunately, the AppleTV will not directly playback Dolby Vision originating from UHD discs.

All UHD discs use Dolby Vision Profile 7, which is dual layer. The first, base layer is standard HDR10. The second layer is known as the "Enhancement layer." Enhancement Layers come in two varieties. Some titles use a so-called "Full Enhancement Layer" aka FEL. A FEL contains dynamic tone mapping metadata (aka "RPU"), as well as residual information that boosts the video bit depth from 10 to 12 bit. Other titles use a so-called "Minimum Enhancement Layer" aka MEL. A MEL only contains the RPU and does not contain any residual information.

The current version of MakeMKV creates .mkv files that retain all of the information stored in the Dolby Vision Enhancement Layer. However, few players are capable of playing back the Enhancement Layer, and even fewer players are capable of decoding the residual color information contained in a FEL.

The AppleTV will not playback any enhancement layer. It is only capable of playing back single layer Dolby Vision, aka Dolby Vision Profile 5 and Dolby Vision Profile 8, which are generally used by streaming sites like Netflix. Plex will trigger the TV's Dolby Vision processing when playing back a Dolby Vision MKV to trick you into thinking you are getting full Dolby Vision playback, but it will actually only decode and playback the base HDR10 layer.

Thanks Colonel...thanks for explaining something that I've been reading about here for the past few days until my eyes bled--and making it way easier to comprehend.

Now I just wish you could write a primer on how to go from a 4K UHD disc > MakeMKV > a Dolby Vision/Atmos (I'd settle for just Atmos at this point) file that Plex tvOS (which now supports Atmos) will like and also trigger Atmos on my Vizio Elevate.

[ColonelBlimp043]

Atmos is also a pain in the ass because, as with Dolby Vision, there are multiple variations.

First, there is the original "object-based" version of Atmos used in movie theaters. Instead of channels, sounds are separately encoded as "objects," and the processor is able to mix the objects and assign them to speakers in real-time. As far as I know, there is no "object-based" version of Atmos available to home users.

Blu-ray and UHD discs employ a channel-based, lossless version of Atmos based on Dolby TrueHD 7.1. An Atmos receiver/processor will extract ceiling height channels from the lossless TrueHD 7.1 stream. Lossless just means that after the data is decompressed, it will be equivalent to the original uncompressed PCM sound file, with no data loss. Think of it like .zip compression for PCM.

Streaming services employ a channel-based, lossy version of Atmos based on Dolby Digital+ 7.1. As with the lossless variation, an Atmos receiver/processor extracts ceiling height channels from the lossy DD+ 7.1 stream. Lossy means that when the data is decompressed, it will lose information compared to the original uncompressed PCM sound file, similar to an mp3. Dolby claims that a listener should not be able to distinguish between the Lossy DD+ and the original PCM, but your mileage may vary.

AppleTV/tvOS only supports lossy Atmos. It cannot decode or even bitstream lossless Atmos to a receiver. It's a hardware limitation, so no matter what Plex tells you, you cannot play Atmos .mkv files that are sourced from UHD discs on an AppleTV. I would also be surprised if any TVs support lossless Atmos because they are primarily designed with streaming services in mind. The Shield will bitstream lossless Atmos to a receiver, and, IMO, this is its only advantage over the AppleTV.

I currently use an AppleTV for streaming services and a Dune HD Real Vision 4K for .mkv playback. The Dune HD is able to play .mkv files stored on my Plex server though DLNA/UPnP. It processes Dolby Vision MEL (but not FEL) and passes lossless Atmos to my receiver for processing. FEL is not a big deal in my opinion because I don't believe there are any 12-bit consumer displays out there, but some FEL titles are not encoded properly and need the residual 12-bit color information to correct errors introduced by the RPU (i.e. Saving Private Ryan and Total Recall being the most commonly referenced examples). For those titles, I just play back the HDR10 base layer. The hardware in the Dune HD also upscales lower resolution content to 4K better than any of the software players available on tvOS.

[bellboy]

Atmos is also a pain in the ass because, as with Dolby Vision, there are multiple variations.

Tell me about it. lol. This has been driving me crazy trying to get Atmos to trip on my speakers.

Streaming services employ a channel-based, lossy version of Atmos based on Dolby Digital+ 7.1. As with the lossless variation, an Atmos receiver/processor extracts ceiling height channels from the lossy DD+ 7.1 stream. Lossy means that when the data is decompressed, it will lose information compared to the original uncompressed PCM sound file, similar to an mp3. Dolby claims that a listener should not be able to distinguish between the Lossy DD+ and the original PCM, but your mileage may vary.

AppleTV/tvOS only supports lossy Atmos. It cannot decode or even bitstream lossless Atmos to a receiver. It's a hardware limitation, so no matter what Plex tells you, you cannot play Atmos .mkv files that are sourced from UHD discs on an AppleTV. I would also be surprised if any TVs support lossless Atmos because they are primarily designed with streaming services in mind. The Shield will bitstream lossless Atmos to a receiver, and, IMO, this is its only advantage over the AppleTV.

I'd be fine with lossy Atmos at this point. My Vizio Elevate will trip my ceiling reflecting speakers in Plex now, so I'd like to take advantage of this with as many titles as possible. I have two files that I've downloaded from the internet that will play in Plex using DD+ Atmos, so I know it can be done. I've read post after post here for files that will play DV/Atmos in a Shield--and that's fine--but if they could also work on my setup that would great. The trick now is to find a workflow that I can use (on a Mac preferably) to reliably convert my 4K UHD discs for use on Plex.

I currently use an AppleTV for streaming services and a Dune HD Real Vision 4K for .mkv playback. The Dune HD is able to play .mkv files stored on my Plex server though DLNA/UPnP. It processes Dolby Vision MEL (but not FEL) and passes lossless Atmos to my receiver for processing. FEL is not a big deal in my opinion because I don't believe there are any 12-bit consumer displays out there, but some FEL titles are not encoded properly and need the residual 12-bit color information to correct errors introduced by the RPU (i.e. Saving Private Ryan and Total Recall being the most commonly referenced examples). For those titles, I just play back the HDR10 base layer. The hardware in the Dune HD also upscales lower resolution content to 4K better than any of the software players available on tvOS.

I've heard some mentions of the Dune HD system, but I've not really researched it as I'd like to try to get my files to work in my Plex/ATV setup as much as possible at this point. If I have to start explaining how this system works to my household, I think I'd rather commit harakiri instead.

[ColonelBlimp043]

Yeah…don’t even bother trying to teach non-techies how to use the Dune HD. The hardware is great, but the software and UI is only a step or two above homebrew, and responsivenesses of the remote is godawful. It’s really only usable with the smartphone app, and even then, you need to know what you are doing.

Still, if family members don’t care about Atmos or DV, the Plex app on tvOS is great.

[ArArdin]

If I have to start explaining how this system works to my household, I think I'd rather commit harakiri instead.

Priceless!!

[sw5163]

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/apple- ... n.3252865/
viewtopic.php?p=123910#p123910

[ameliemopol]

Atmos is also a pain in the ass because, as with Dolby Vision, there are multiple variations.

First, there is the original "object-based" version of Atmos used in movie theaters. Instead of channels, sounds are separately encoded as "objects," and the processor is able to mix the objects and assign them to speakers in real-time. As far as I know, there is no "object-based" version of Atmos available to home users.

Blu-ray and UHD discs employ a channel-based, lossless version of Atmos based on Dolby TrueHD 7.1. An Atmos receiver/processor will extract ceiling height channels from the lossless TrueHD 7.1 stream. Lossless just means that after the data is decompressed, it will be equivalent to the original uncompressed PCM sound file, with no data loss. Think of it like .zip compression for PCM.

Streaming services employ a channel-based, lossy version of Atmos based on Dolby Digital+ 7.1. As with the lossless variation, an Atmos receiver/processor extracts ceiling height channels from the lossy DD+ 7.1 stream. Lossy means that when the data is decompressed, it will lose information compared to the original uncompressed PCM sound file, similar to an mp3. Dolby claims that a listener should not be able to distinguish between the Lossy DD+ and the original PCM, but your mileage may vary.

AppleTV/tvOS only supports lossy Atmos. It cannot decode or even bitstream lossless Atmos to a receiver. It's a hardware limitation, so no matter what Plex tells you, you cannot play Atmos .mkv files that are sourced from UHD discs on an AppleTV. I would also be surprised if any TVs support lossless Atmos because they are primarily designed with streaming services in mind. The Shield will bitstream lossless Atmos to a receiver, and, IMO, this is its only advantage over the AppleTV.

I currently use an AppleTV for streaming services and a Dune HD Real Vision 4K for .mkv playback. The Dune HD is able to play .mkv files stored on my Plex server though DLNA/UPnP. It processes Dolby Vision MEL (but not FEL) and passes lossless Atmos to my receiver for processing. FEL is not a big deal in my opinion because I don't believe there are any 12-bit consumer displays out there, but some FEL titles are not encoded properly and need the residual 12-bit color information to correct errors introduced by the RPU (i.e. Saving Private Ryan and Total Recall being the most commonly referenced examples). For those titles, I just play back the HDR10 base layer. The hardware in the Dune HD also upscales lower resolution content to 4K better than any of the software players available on tvOS.

Part of Dune HD Real Vision 4K review;
For profile 7 there are actually two different types, the profile 7 MEL (minimal enhancement layer) and profile 7 FEL (full enhancement layer). The player seems to be able to playback both of them although there doesn’t seem to be a lot of content with this specific profile available. Also impressive is that Dolby Vision is supported for all popular file formats like MKV, MP4, TS, M2TS, ISO and movie folder structure.

So this is not correct then, no profile 7 FEL support?

[dcoke22]

Part of Dune HD Real Vision 4K review;
For profile 7 there are actually two different types, the profile 7 MEL (minimal enhancement layer) and profile 7 FEL (full enhancement layer). The player seems to be able to playback both of them although there doesn’t seem to be a lot of content with this specific profile available. Also impressive is that Dolby Vision is supported for all popular file formats like MKV, MP4, TS, M2TS, ISO and movie folder structure.

So this is not correct then, no profile 7 FEL support?

I don't have a Dune player, so I don't have first hand experience. I can only parrot what I've read on the internet.

That said, it is my understanding that proper DV profile 7 FEL requires two decoders. I believe only disc players have that (and they only seem to use it when playing from a disc). So while the Dune can read a profile 7 rip, in the case of FEL, it can't process that data, so it ignores it.

This isn't to imply that the Dune isn't a good streamer; it probably is. But I don't think it (yet) is the One Streamer Box to Rule Them All.

[ColonelBlimp043]

So this is not correct then, no profile 7 FEL support?

Dune will not decode the residual 2-bit video stream from the FEL. It will read the RPU metadata for dynamic tone mapping.