Separate export for FORCED and regular SUBS

[DJRumpy]

I've noticed when exporting subs, if you check the forced only, you get just the forced subs, which is what I would expect. If you click the subs above it for the regular subs, and leave the forced, you get all of them jammed into a single file, which isn't desirable. When burning subs, I typically burn in the forced subs, while leaving the regular subs as optional/selectable.

As these are all bundled together, you have to manually scan through each sub track, erasing the forced from the regular subs. VERY tedious.

Is there any way to export a separate sub for each item selected? Much like you would get an audio track for each selected, the subs does NOT seem to work that way.

Thanks

[dcoke22]

Subtitles on blu-rays are sort-of a mess. Even though MakeMKV shows two entries, there's really only one on the disc. One with them all mashed together. The forced subtitles have a bit of metadata that mark them as forced. As a convenience, MakeMKV can output them as a separate subtitle track.

Unless, of course, that isn't how the disc is authored. And it often isn't.

Sometimes the forced subtitles aren't marked as forced subtitles, it is just a separate track entirely that consists of only the forced subtitles, but since they aren't marked in the metadata as such, it looks just like a regular subtitle track. It is an exercise left to the user to figure out which is which.

Depending on your playback setup, it is probably easier to just have both a forced subtitle track and an everything subtitle track and mark the forced track as the default. Don't burn either, just have them both in the file. Things like Plex will turn on the defaulted track, leaving the other track accessible if you like.

[DJRumpy]

If it can extract only the forced from the main subtitle, then it can certainly put those in a separate file. It's trivial to send data streams to separate files. It does this just by virtue of being able to extract the forced only from them main.

I prefer the forced titles to be burned, so you don't have to toggle them on, and you can optionally turn off the non-forced ones. I don't bother with homemade disks. These are all store bought blu-rays.

[ArArdin]

If it can extract only the forced from the main subtitle, then it can certainly put those in a separate file.

I don't think MakeMKV was designed for spitting out separate forced subs tracks in the first place. And because this is often simply not possible, why bother altogether?

As dcoke22 stated, often identifying and separating forced subs can't be carried out by machine. And human labor instead is required. Authoring of (UHD)BD can be very complex. Where human-input dependent menu-structures can dictate which forced subs are to be displayed or not. Possibly co-decided by settings in the player's menu.

[DJRumpy]

Except the tool already does this. It extracts multiple audio streams, video streams, and subtitles. I work with code constructs myself. I know this is easily done as far as piping output. If MakeMKV can detect a forced sub, it can certainly output just that forced text to a separate file.

Just because you may not see value in it, doesn't make my ask any less valid.

Thanks.

[ArArdin]

Do you mean that MakeMKV is now able to compose forced subtitle tracks, even when the concerning subtitles aren't flagged as forced, whether this be individually or as separate PGS stream?
Don't get me wrong, I certainly appreciate both your question and its value.

[DJRumpy]

No I mean it is able to discern when a subtitle has forced tracks and extract only that text to a file (done by selecting only the forced sub-option rather than the main subtitle.

That said if you select both the main and the forced, rather than getting the main (minus the forced) and the forced (minus the main), you get the main+forced and then a separate forced only. It’s unintuitive. An option to get individual (main without forced) and forced (without main) would be nice.

The current output duplicates the forced in the main. Useful if you just want them on all the time but leaving no option to show only forced without other (main) subs.

Note that I do not burn my media. I rip it and put it on a media server. I always burn Forced tracks (for foreign language) leaving me free to toggle non-forced on or off by choice.

As MakeMKV always combines forced with regular with both selected when ripping, you have to manually remove duplicated forced subs from the main subtitles with a text editor. A tedious process that MakeMKV could do for you easily enough if the option was there.

Thanks

[Woodstock]

As MakeMKV always combines forced with regular with both selected when ripping, you have to manually remove duplicated forced subs from the main subtitles with a text editor. A tedious process that MakeMKV could do for you easily enough if the option was there.

MakeMKV does not combine subtitle tracks. It optionally copies out flagged-as-forced individual subtitles into their own track.

If the disk author created a separate "these are the forced subtitles" track, MakeMKV won't merge it with anything else.

[DJRumpy]

I understand that. If it can copy out only forced, then it can copy out non-forced.

[Woodstock]

If there are no "flagged-as-forced" subtitles, such a copy is identical to the original, i.e., not useful for your purposes. I've only encountered two titles that used "flagged-as-forced" out of several thousand titles.

What is needed is a tool that can give you a difference between two tracks. "Take this full track and this forced-only track, and generate a third track that contains only those subtitles they don't share." That is, a "subtitle-aware diff".

There was a request for this to be added to handbrake a few years ago. I do not recall what the result was, other than it was outside the project scope, and some tools were recommended.

[Chetwood]

Probably because it's pointless. Why have the regular subs without the forced items anyway? Because the forced items will then overlay your burned in forced items? Burning in means re-encoding which is a no-no anyway. And since most current players read the flags, having only the forced items as the default track usually is enough.

[DJRumpy]

You clearly don't understand the question, or haven't read the whole thread. I don't take raw BD files and store them. I'm encoding them to H.265, burning in the forced at that time, but leaving the non-forced as user selectable.

That allows anyone to be able to read any non-English subtitles, while giving them the option of turning off the 'regular' subtitles. This has nothing to do with Blu Ray players or anything of the sort. These are stored on a media server and played with Plex.

[Woodstock]

And that changes the situation in what way?

If a player is capable of playing an MKV file made from a BD original, with PGS subtitles in it, it should not need to have a burned-in subtitle track. It needs only to have the proper flags set on the track you are currently burning in. Those track flags are "Forced" and "Default". If you only set one, the player might ignore it... Which is why I post-process all MKV files with the header editor from mkvtoolnix.

MakeMKV can set "forced", but often sets it for the wrong track. Handbrake can set "default", but many players ignore that.

Without doing the suggested diff of two tracks, the proposal won't do much for 99% of sources.

Of course, if you're looking at MP4 as your output format, it's all moot, since you can't put a PGS subtitle track in an MP4; you're stuck with burning something in.

[DJRumpy]

These are MP4.

[dcoke22]

.mp4's inflexibility regarding subtitles is one reason I've given up on that container. .mkv files have all kinds of flexibility and play just fine from my Plex server. Things like early Bruce Lee films or Anime (Cowboy Bebop most recently space cowboy) get ugly fast when you have choose between a dubbed English soundtrack or the original language and burning in subtitles. I've found things are a lot cleaner when I can put all the interesting audio tracks and subtitle tracks in the file and set the right tracks to default. This means in most cases it just works but I have the option to switch it on the fly. YMMV.