Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

[Manixx2020beyound]

I believe he's talking about sony tvs, not sony bluray players.

correct ... most players can do both DV mode and TV-led capable TVs are not affected by this bug.
Also, there's the GoogleTV Chromecast that output lldv by default last time I checked, and no way to force tv-led unless you have an hdfury device (or a tv that doesnt support lldv).
the xbox i think also only send lldv ? but im not sure.

Excellent analysis, thank you!
Just to wrap up the technical research to make sure all of us understand it. The LLDV bug ( aka Player-LED DV ) exists in all TV models regardless of whether it's Sony or not. It's a bug within Dolby's firmware, which is not going to be addressed, most likely. After reading and doing some Googling, it appears to me most Sony TVs made before 2021 are LLDV. I am assuming also this is why you felt bad for Sony TV owners in your previous comment. The LLDV bug does not really affect the players like Oppo, Sony X700, Fire TV Stick, Apple TV, and other streaming devices ( except you mentioned the Chromecast defaults to LLDV, which can be corrected with HDFury). Also, most players support both, TV-led and LLDV. So, does it mean the player automatically lets the TV handle the Dolby Vision mapping assuming it's not Sony? Please, correct me if I made a wrong statement and I misunderstood something.

And how do I know my TV does support TV-led DV? I have two TVs, a 2018 Vizio Quantum PQ65-F1, and a 2018 TCL R617.

The TLC supports both player led & tv led.
Hdfury or vertex2
Or a amplifier it let’s u see the specs
U will see rgb 24bit/- vs ycbr 422 12bit

[lexyz]

Excellent analysis, thank you!
... The LLDV bug does not really affect the players...

Very opposite
LLDV bug is a source-side issue.
Any UHD DV Blu-Ray player has this bug (and clones too)
Any bug-free Player-led source should send DV picture equal to TV-led despite a neglectible brightness difference. Of course if peak brightness value is correct in TV's EDID. Otherwise highlights could be clipped.

[mulucy]

Excellent analysis, thank you!
... The LLDV bug does not really affect the players...

Very opposite
LLDV bug is a source-side issue.
Any bug-free Player-led source should send DV picture equal to TV-led despite a neglectible brightness difference. Of course if peak brightness value is correct in TV's EDID. Otherwise highlights could be clipped.

It makes sense haha. But do bug-free LLDV players exist?

edit: Regarding the clipped highlights, what it means is, if TV can physically only produce 800 nits, but EDID presents 1,500, then players send wrong brightness information, hence the clipping?

[RESET_9999]

I'm glad you finally see it

Thanks, for the dropbox list, very useful.
It's hard to compare on the shield something that is not P5 because of the color issue. I think the difference we are seeing on those comparisons with the Shield is the red-push and that if we had a profile 5 version of the SM clip, the problem would look as bad as the x700. Also, this is probably caused by your camera, but I see more clipping(overall) on the shield LLDV that is not on the x700 LLDV pic but I agree that on your comparison, I can see more of the small purple pollen spots on the shield.
also, it looks like your HDR10 picture is from the 10 000nits version, we prefer to compare with 1000nits bl instead because HDR10 at 10 000nits looks bad on pretty much any TV even on @manix 3000nits shogun.

[kazuma]

can you play mkv-dv on kodi 18.9? (vero 4k+)

[HarperVision]

.........Secondly any nit value entry in the dv data block lum section will override the hdr avi lum entry
10k nit in both hdr/avi - dv- data block ............

.............No way 10k nit work in both lum entries that’s for sure......

The DV Data Block does not override the HDR/AVI settings, that's what I am saying I do and have proven over and over by doing it personally! I get the blown out highlights like you're saying when I ONLY change the DV Data Block, but then I immediately change the parameters in the HDR/AVI Max Luminance section to 10,000 nits and it magically then tone maps and makes the image with much details and NO CLIPPING, even in scenes which are easily noticeable like I said, The Meg chapter 8 (overturned boat) and Aquaman chapter 6 (Aquaman in chains looking at his brother the king with bright white elaborate framed window behind him).

What you have to do and maybe what I wasn't clear on, is that for those very bright movies and to ensure no clipping with DTM, then you have to set the DV Data Block to 1,000 nits (not 10,000) but set HDR/AVI max luminance to 10,000 nits. I have seen that the movies mastered at 1,000 nits and streaming movies from Netflix, iTunes, AppleTV+, etc. that the DV Data Block at 10,000 nits works extremely well and that is how I watched Army of the Dead, which was incredible. For any 2,000 - 10,000 nit source, you do need to set DV Data Block to 1,000 nits though. This is also what I recommend as a good "set and forget" setting to get full DTM for ANY source, but then I have to set the HDR Brightness to its "0" default setting. It doesn't look quite as good as the full 10,000 nit version when watching streaming iTunes and Netflix, so to ME at least, it's worth switching modes, which is only one button push on my Harmony anyway, so simple.

I think what you and some others may have done when testing this is set the DV Data Block and HDR/AVI's max luminance settings and not stopped the video, gone back to the GUI/Menu, and then restart it all from scratch so the new EDID and Custom Data takes effect. I have done that on many occasions and forgot to restart and was SO angry thinking I knew it worked before and I knew I changed parameters, but then eventually realized I didn't restart so the new settings didn't take effect. Once I did the difference was clearly apparent!

......Also how are u comparing what your seeing to what’s its soposed be hopefully not by just a visible glance or watching,
That’s not a sure shot way of saying what your seeing matches the original??
Some comparison from the signal your getting would be nice to valadate your actual inputs in the vertex2.

I have done many workflow HDR jobs using this method with my CalMAN for Business software and i1Pro2 spectro, which bears out the proper tone mapping.

I also have an LG 65C8 OLED which does TV Led DV and have looked at both using the same scenes. I am not saying that I don't agree there isn't an LLDV bug. I was just saying that it appeared to me that Vincent's conclusion wasn't based on enough data when he posted that video as he only appeared to have tested one UHD Bluray player, an Oppo 203 I believe. Now that you and others are coming in with more data, then it makes it more factual where the root cause is.

I also want to stress that I am mostly using an AppleTV 4K newest generation with Infuse app on ripped UHD Blurays, as well as iTunes, Netflix, etc. streaming 4K UHD DV titles. Most of your and Vincent's analysis is done using discs and disc players, no? Have you tested AppleTV using Infuse, converting the ripped HDR10 movie to LLDV to see if that shows the same bug?

I will have to watch Vincent's video again. I don't recall everything that was reported exactly.

I will post some quick comparison phone pictures showing how changing the HDR/AVI tab's max luminance to 10,000 nits eliminates clipping and does DTM. It won't be for image quality, just to show how it brings back all the highlight details in the clouds, window frame, etc. It also does the same for the low level shadow details too.

[HarperVision]

I went through all the scenes Vincent compared. The LLDV bug is real!!!(at least for the oppo,x700,shield,dune) looks like a problem with yellow clipping and a darker overall image(less punch).....

I see you haven't done Infuse with AppleTV. Hopefully that device helps clear up some of the bug!

I certainly don't see a darker image overall with less punch, quite the opposite actually, but maybe that is due to me calibrating it to that image and settings and not something else with TV-Led, since projectors can't do that, idk? Also, maybe the darker image is actually better for my DLP projector anyway, since it has very high brightness and they're known for not the best blacks compared to the JVCs and Sonys of the world.

.....@HarperVision , my X-550R jvc projector cannot compete with your PJ but did you ever compare lldv-pq and HDR10 madVR HDR to SDR pixel shader (with dynamic target nits and tonemapping)? This looks amazing on my end, like 50x better than passthrough. I bet madvr also looks better on your high-end PJ . https://www.avsforum.com/threads/improv ... -projector.

Well I am sure your JVC has much better black floor than my LK990!

I am just now kind of playing with MadVR, but don't really have the time right now because I am moving and all my time is taken up doing that. Also in my old age, I don't really want to mess with HTPCs anymore. I was in on the ground floor with them way back, and was even part of the TAW, Inc. team that built and marketed the TAW Rock/Rock+/Rock Pro series of video processors, which were essentially custom built PCs dedicated to video processing, much like the new MadVR Envy now. Are you familiar with Mark Rejhon by chance? He was our software engineer and a genious! We won numerous CES, CEDIA and various AV Awards for these and the TAW line of CRT and DLP projectors and TAW DigiLink SDI DVD player.

I also had a Lumagen Radiance Pro 4242 here, in an earlier stage of its DTM development, and can say that the LLDV DTM I am doing is easily as good or better than that ever was. They have gone through some updates since then, so I am eager to see and compare them again when I finally get all moved and into my new position working with a VERY high end Custom Integrator and long time friend and business associate. I can't wait to play with all these toys again!

[HarperVision]

You think we have to replace our sony x700 by the sony x800 mk2?

That is an interesting thought. I wonder if they have an updated Dolby Vision software/hardware CMU in the X800M2? I know I see a visible difference with the new version of AppleTV 4K and I wondered if it may have to do with it using a newer and better DV algorithm in the new one?

[HarperVision]

I see you haven't done Infuse with AppleTV. Hopefully that device helps clear up some of the bug!....

Well I see based on this post from Stacey Spears that apparenlty the AppleTV doens't have the bug, or at least shouldn't. Maybe that is why I don't see it?

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... tcount=924

The issue with DVLL is that one of the trim pass controls is completely ignored. I assume this bug only exists on BD. ATV, for example, should not have this bug. In theory! If that trim control is used, then you will have an issue on that shot. That is how we made our DV Quality Check pattern. Here is the pattern in Vincent's video.....

[lexyz]

Based on available information and own comparisons I'm sure LLDV bug affect only BD players. Seems Dolby's software for BD players has flaw, which is knows at least since 2019 but still not fixed.
A little hope bound to a new S&M UHD Benchmark disk with DV test patterns. Maybe some reviewers and big av-sites will stress that DV in LL mode is crippled tech.
And maybe Dolby will finally provide updated SDK for BD players manufacturers. (at least Sony and Panasonic)

also, it looks like your HDR10 picture is from the 10 000nits version

It was 1000
No point to run 10k version on Bravias

[Manixx2020beyound]

.........Secondly any nit value entry in the dv data block lum section will override the hdr avi lum entry
10k nit in both hdr/avi - dv- data block ............

.............No way 10k nit work in both lum entries that’s for sure......

The DV Data Block does not override the HDR/AVI settings, that's what I am saying I do and have proven over and over by doing it personally! I get the blown out highlights like you're saying when I ONLY change the DV Data Block, but then I immediately change the parameters in the HDR/AVI Max Luminance section to 10,000 nits and it magically then tone maps and makes the image with much details and NO CLIPPING, even in scenes which are easily noticeable like I said, The Meg chapter 8 (overturned boat) and Aquaman chapter 6 (Aquaman in chains looking at his brother the king with bright white elaborate framed window behind him).

What you have to do and maybe what I wasn't clear on, is that for those very bright movies and to ensure no clipping with DTM, then you have to set the DV Data Block to 1,000 nits (not 10,000) but set HDR/AVI max luminance to 10,000 nits. I have seen that the movies mastered at 1,000 nits and streaming movies from Netflix, iTunes, AppleTV+, etc. that the DV Data Block at 10,000 nits works extremely well and that is how I watched Army of the Dead, which was incredible. For any 2,000 - 10,000 nit source, you do need to set DV Data Block to 1,000 nits though. This is also what I recommend as a good "set and forget" setting to get full DTM for ANY source, but then I have to set the HDR Brightness to its "0" default setting. It doesn't look quite as good as the full 10,000 nit version when watching streaming iTunes and Netflix, so to ME at least, it's worth switching modes, which is only one button push on my Harmony anyway, so simple.

I think what you and some others may have done when testing this is set the DV Data Block and HDR/AVI's max luminance settings and not stopped the video, gone back to the GUI/Menu, and then restart it all from scratch so the new EDID and Custom Data takes effect. I have done that on many occasions and forgot to restart and was SO angry thinking I knew it worked before and I knew I changed parameters, but then eventually realized I didn't restart so the new settings didn't take effect. Once I did the difference was clearly apparent!

......Also how are u comparing what your seeing to what’s its soposed be hopefully not by just a visible glance or watching,
That’s not a sure shot way of saying what your seeing matches the original??
Some comparison from the signal your getting would be nice to valadate your actual inputs in the vertex2.

I have done many workflow HDR jobs using this method with my CalMAN for Business software and i1Pro2 spectro, which bears out the proper tone mapping.

I also have an LG 65C8 OLED which does TV Led DV and have looked at both using the same scenes. I am not saying that I don't agree there isn't an LLDV bug. I was just saying that it appeared to me that Vincent's conclusion wasn't based on enough data when he posted that video as he only appeared to have tested one UHD Bluray player, an Oppo 203 I believe. Now that you and others are coming in with more data, then it makes it more factual where the root cause is.

I also want to stress that I am mostly using an AppleTV 4K newest generation with Infuse app on ripped UHD Blurays, as well as iTunes, Netflix, etc. streaming 4K UHD DV titles. Most of your and Vincent's analysis is done using discs and disc players, no? Have you tested AppleTV using Infuse, converting the ripped HDR10 movie to LLDV to see if that shows the same bug?

I will have to watch Vincent's video again. I don't recall everything that was reported exactly.

I will post some quick comparison phone pictures showing how changing the HDR/AVI tab's max luminance to 10,000 nits eliminates clipping and does DTM. It won't be for image quality, just to show how it brings back all the highlight details in the clouds, window frame, etc. It also does the same for the low level shadow details too.

Everything u said here I have tried.
Many many times
Yes 1000nit for the real bright movies is correct
Thats what the Sony does when outputting
Or tone mapping dv to hdr using the Rpu meta regardless of the movie original master ing nits only send 1000nit.
I can match the 1000 nit hdr version from the 10000nit version.(but the bug still there)
Will try some of my streaming devices today to see if it’s on all devices but so far seems like it is we will know for sure.

[knilch]

@anyone who know something

I just don't get it. What is an RPU? And why is an MEL needed when there is no information in it? Why is an RPU needed when you have an FEL? What happens with an FEL when you use yusescope's tool and convert FEL to MEL? Is the information lost? Is it somehow added to the RPU? And what happens if BL+FEL+RPU is converted to profile 8.1? Is the base layer changed in any way at any time?

Info is much appeciated!

Regards
knilch

[mulucy]

@anyone who know something

I just don't get it. What is an RPU? And why is an MEL needed when there is no information in it? Why is an RPU needed when you have an FEL? What happens with an FEL when you use yusescope's tool and convert FEL to MEL? Is the information lost? Is it somehow added to the RPU? And what happens if BL+FEL+RPU is converted to profile 8.1? Is the base layer changed in any way at any time?

Info is much appeciated!

Regards
knilch

take your time and have fun https://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.ph ... st16884278

[knilch]

Thanks vor the link. However it doesn't answer the question what exactly is stored in an RPU and how an RPU gets changed when you convert from FEL to MEL or convert FEL to profile 8.1.

The reason for my interest is this: I plan to rip BL+FEL+RPU double track dual layer from BD, then extract BL and EL and convert to profile 8.1 using yusesope's tools mentioned in this thread ending up with a BL+RPU. What information is added to the RPU from source EL (if any?), what information is lost in the conversion and is BL changed in any way. And then on: The resulting BL+RPU goes into x265 for reencoding ending up with another now compressed BL+RPU and will then be multiplexed with audio/subs to MKV.

[chros]

I'm not sure what you try to do is correct (injecting p5 RPU into hdr10 streams), and I don't even mean the color issue: it would be correct, if they would use the same mastering process for the streaming and the UHD-BD version. But I think that's not the case.
And if the UHD-BD is created in hdr10 (or hdr10+ recently) in mind, then the whole movie is graded with a static curve and the dynamic p5 rpu will modify the look the wrong way.

I think most movies are graded in single deliverable HDR workflow(DV or hdr10+ or both) and HDR10/SDR are just derived(trim pass) from the HDR master. so the static BL is the same, thats why it works (perfect brightness match with p5)...
Theaters get a different grade and that make sense because of the lower luminance of PJ. But 1 grade for streaming and 1 other grade for bluray releases? sounds like a waste of time and money when you can do it in just 1 grade.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhxORqncgJE

Well, good question. But what's the point of releasing those titles from the same studio (e.g. Disney) in hdr10 then? The only thing I can think of is licensing fees, but ... seriously?
Don't get me wrong, it the result is looking better, then why not use it, we don't have a clue how it should look anyway

Thanks, that was an interesting video. Here's a good video from a french colorist, talks about DoVi workflow, manual SDR grading, fake HDR, and the end (from ~48 minutes) is also really interesting (He has the same clips graded in various formats on his website lelabodejay.com)

Firestick 4k + patched Kodi ... And indeed there's no banding/posterization, so my theory was wrong: Firestick 4k also triggers tv-led DoVi with our 2018 LG.

To add another variable into the mix
We know now that Firestick also triggers TV-Led Dovi with 2018 LGs, but the whole image is noticably darker, e.g. compared to internal apps.
Here's the profile 8.1 version of Spears's black clipping DoVi pattern, so I fired it up on FIrestick and Oppo as well (Plex didn't recognised it, dunno how that works):
- Oppo: 72 barely flashing
- Firestick: 81 barely flashing!!!

But it's not just the low end that is affected, the whole image seems to be a bit darker, it's like double-expanded is set in madvr ...

So, guys, if you like, you can also try this out (in a pitch black room) with your display and other devices to see how they behave.