Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

[HarperVision]

So what are the thoughts on what this professional videographer says about maintaining dynamic metadata (DV, HDR10+, etc.) when digitizing your UHD Bluray collection using mkv? It starts about the 11:52 mark:

https://youtu.be/1tDoWwSM-f8

The statement is incorrect, UHD BD does not include metadata as XML.
It's encoded in the base HDR10 layer (for HDR10+) or in the separate HEVC stream (EL layer) for Dolby Vision.
The separate HEVC stream is already in sync with the base layer, so that decoders can decode both at the same time.

Perhaps he’s confusing it with the RPU?

In other words, I'm kind of hardcoding the dynamic metadata and FEL into a static HDR10 stream. Just like manix does with his atomos shogun (except that he can do it with any input device.)

Can you please explain further the bolded above, or share some links? Thanks!

[quietvoid]

Perhaps he’s confusing it with the RPU?

The RPU is contained in the second video track as well.
In the original audio (in French), only XML is mentioned as being part of the original disc image outside of the video/m2ts. Which is false.

[HarperVision]

Perhaps he’s confusing it with the RPU?

The RPU is contained in the second video track as well.
In the original audio (in French), only XML is mentioned as being part of the original disc image outside of the video/m2ts. Which is false.

Thanks for clarifying!

[RESET_9999]

Can you please explain further the bolded above, or share some links? Thanks!

The Atomos shogun is a device that can monitor and record HDR (DV and HDR10). So once it receives any decoded DV signal (LLDV), it can capture/analyze it.
https://www.atomos.com/products/shogun-7

I can't do that with my low-end capture card because unlike the shogun, it's not seen as a DV-compatible device so once my capture card is in the chain, I lose every option related to DV.

[RESET_9999]

Would you do similar experiment, what happens when you convert hdr10 to DV on the fly?

Fake DV vs Real HDR10: https://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/12710
Real DV (p5 web) vs Real HDR10: https://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/12712

As you can see, it just brightens the image. I wouldn't recommend using the x700 HDR10/SDR to DV on the fly conversion.

[RESET_9999]

unfortunately, after a couple of tests on my projector, the x700 DV FEL tone mapping to HDR10 is not really good for watching DV movies: it seems to mess up the black level.

[azreil24]

All Sony players convert everything to DV if you have the DV option activated. It sounds cool, but it isn't as it sends SDR content in DV container and messes up the colors and everything. At least that's how it works with discs and the reason I sold it, as I was tired of having to manually activate DV based on movie.

[HarperVision]

Would you do similar experiment, what happens when you convert hdr10 to DV on the fly?

Fake DV vs Real HDR10: https://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/12710
Real DV (p5 web) vs Real HDR10: https://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/12712

As you can see, it just brightens the image. I wouldn't recommend using the x700 HDR10/SDR to DV on the fly conversion.

It only appears to brighten the image because it is now properly tone mapping the output to the display’s reported capabilities such as peak luminance, instead of sending 1,000 nit content to a display with less than that luminance available while using a static PQ curve, making the luminance levels fall in the incorrect place, making the scene darker than it should be.

In other words, what’s supposed to be at say digital 10 bit code 150 is now at that proper level, whereas before it was artificially being crushed and lowered to all 1,000 nits into say a 200 nit static container.

All Sony players convert everything to DV if you have the DV option activated. It sounds cool, but it isn't as it sends SDR content in DV container and messes up the colors and everything. At least that's how it works with discs and the reason I sold it, as I was tired of having to manually activate DV based on movie.

This is incorrect if the display maps the colors and dynamic range as it should. If it doesn’t that’s on the display you’re using, not the player.

Colors within any of the color gamuts will be completely identical whether they be Rec709, DCI-P3 or BT2020, up to each of their limits of course. So putting a Rec709 source into a wider P3 or BT2020 container should look and display identically when the gamuts are mapped properly since Rec709 is smaller than either of those wider gamuts. It’s not supposed to stretch the colors at all and if it does then your display is doing it wrong, not the source.

I have both an X700 and an X800M2 as well as an AppleTV 4K and they don’t have any of the issues reported with my displays because they map the signal correctly.

[Manixx2020beyound]

Would you do similar experiment, what happens when you convert hdr10 to DV on the fly?

Fake DV vs Real HDR10: https://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/12710
Real DV (p5 web) vs Real HDR10: https://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/12712

As you can see, it just brightens the image. I wouldn't recommend using the x700 HDR10/SDR to DV on the fly conversion.

It only appears to brighten the image because it is now properly tone mapping the output to the display’s reported capabilities such as peak luminance, instead of sending 1,000 nit content to a display with less than that luminance available while using a static PQ curve, making the luminance levels fall in the incorrect place, making the scene darker than it should be.

In other words, what’s supposed to be at say digital 10 bit code 150 is now at that proper level, whereas before it was artificially being crushed and lowered to all 1,000 nits into say a 200 nit static container.

All Sony players convert everything to DV if you have the DV option activated. It sounds cool, but it isn't as it sends SDR content in DV container and messes up the colors and everything. At least that's how it works with discs and the reason I sold it, as I was tired of having to manually activate DV based on movie.

This is incorrect if the display maps the colors and dynamic range as it should. If it doesn’t that’s on the display you’re using, not the player.

Colors within any of the color gamuts will be completely identical whether they be Rec709, DCI-P3 or BT2020, up to each of their limits of course. So putting a Rec709 source into a wider P3 or BT2020 container should look and display identically when the gamuts are mapped properly since Rec709 is smaller than either of those wider gamuts. It’s not supposed to stretch the colors at all and if it does then your display is doing it wrong, not the source.

I have both an X700 and an X800M2 as well as an AppleTV 4K and they don’t have any of the issues reported with my displays because they map the signal correctly.

So, sending the natural movie peek 1000 nit brightness should clear up the artificial crushing of the blacks
Instead of the oled peek 700nit display.
Will test that method now again.

[HarperVision]

Fake DV vs Real HDR10: https://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/12710
Real DV (p5 web) vs Real HDR10: https://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/12712

As you can see, it just brightens the image. I wouldn't recommend using the x700 HDR10/SDR to DV on the fly conversion.

It only appears to brighten the image because it is now properly tone mapping the output to the display’s reported capabilities such as peak luminance, instead of sending 1,000 nit content to a display with less than that luminance available while using a static PQ curve, making the luminance levels fall in the incorrect place, making the scene darker than it should be.

In other words, what’s supposed to be at say digital 10 bit code 150 is now at that proper level, whereas before it was artificially being crushed and lowered to all 1,000 nits into say a 200 nit static container.

All Sony players convert everything to DV if you have the DV option activated. It sounds cool, but it isn't as it sends SDR content in DV container and messes up the colors and everything. At least that's how it works with discs and the reason I sold it, as I was tired of having to manually activate DV based on movie.

This is incorrect if the display maps the colors and dynamic range as it should. If it doesn’t that’s on the display you’re using, not the player.

Colors within any of the color gamuts will be completely identical whether they be Rec709, DCI-P3 or BT2020, up to each of their limits of course. So putting a Rec709 source into a wider P3 or BT2020 container should look and display identically when the gamuts are mapped properly since Rec709 is smaller than either of those wider gamuts. It’s not supposed to stretch the colors at all and if it does then your display is doing it wrong, not the source.

I have both an X700 and an X800M2 as well as an AppleTV 4K and they don’t have any of the issues reported with my displays because they map the signal correctly.

So, sending the natural movie peek 1000 nit brightness should clear up the artificial crushing of the blacks
Instead of the oled peek 700nit display.
Will test that method now again.

No I think you have it reversed and are thinking in the same terms as @RESET_9999.

If you send 1,000 nit peak, non-tone mapped source into a display that only has 700 nits total brightness/luminance available it will pretty much do one of three things, depending on the manufacturer and what they’ve decided to implement. It will either:

1. Display the source signal up to 700 nits and clip everything from 700-1,000 nits.

2. Display the source signal by compressing all of the 1,000 nit luminance into the 700 nits available. This is what makes the image darker because all the levels are lowered by ~30%, as RESET_9999 is seeing. This is how displays did it when HDR was first a thing and everyone complained that they hated HDR because it was “too dark”.

3. Display the source signal by tone mapping to the available peak luminance of the display, in this case 700 nits, but the key to this is maintaining the diffuse white level while tone mapping, which is basically leaving all the main picture information in essentially the “SDR” range (initially ~100 nits but now they’re mastering at 203 nits) and then only tone mapping everything above that level, known as the specular highlights (the sun, explosions, fire, lights or the sun glinting off of chrome, bright spotlights, etc.). This is what gives HDR video the more realistic look and feel compared to SDR, which can’t resolve specular highlights while maintaining detail in the low APL (dark) scenes.

So what I was trying to convey, probably confusingly in my prior post, was that what RESET_9999 was seeing wasn’t just “the image getting brighter” when tone mapping regular HDR10 to DV. He was seeing option 2 above (native HDR without tone mapping on a lower nit display) vs an image with its proper tone mapping and levels implemented with the amazing Dolby Vision processing which is option 3 above, so to him it just “looked brighter”, but in actually he was finally seeing it correctly displayed as it was mastered.

[chros]

Thanks for chiming in, it's good to talk to people who know their stuff

But I think this case is different: if I'm not mistaken, reset9999 has an LG C8, I have a B8 (apart form the peak nit capability they behave the same), these sets also do type 3 (not 2).
This is how it responds to various HDR10 metadata, so let's assume 1000 nits maxCLL.
I'll post similar graphs about 4 DoVi presets tomorrow, but even the most accurate Cinema preset brightens the image between 30%-70%, and that is clearly visible with normal content as well.

I only used SDR to DoVi upconversion with the Oppo, I observed 2 drawbacks (compared to 3dlut profiled SDR preset), hence I stopped using it:
- "shadow detail" is sometimes way more elevated almost at disturbing level (maybe it is related to the aformentioned brightening of middle range)
- colors get desaturated sometimes

I'm not sure what exactly the reason behind these, because most of the sime there's no issue at all.

[RESET_9999]

Just got a Chromecast, and I confirm that it's a FEL DV capable device. The ending credits of Power rangers is bright white... FEL noise visible on test file as confirmed before. great player for my bedroom TV

player-led and tv-led seem to be behaving strangely ... on my C8 OLED I'm only getting LLDV(player-led) but on my cheap Vizio TV which doesn't support LLDV I get TV-led DV. HDR10 and SDR are color accurate.
*tested iTunes, Movies Anywhere, and PLEX

also, no red push in the Dr. Sleep p7 rip. The Shield is really the only device that has color issues and yet, the nvidia staff still say that they don't see any difference ...

[dvidebaek]

Just got a Chromecast, and I confirm that it's a FEL DV capable device. The ending credits of Power rangers is bright white... FEL noise visible on test file as confirmed before. great player for my bedroom TV

player-led and tv-led seem to be behaving strangely ... on my C8 OLED I'm only getting LLDV(player-led) but on my cheap Vizio TV which doesn't support LLDV I get TV-led DV. HDR10 and SDR are color accurate.
*tested iTunes, Movies Anywhere, and PLEX

also, no red push in the Dr. Sleep p7 rip. The Shield is really the only device that has color issues and yet, the nvidia staff still say that they don't see any difference ...

Is that the new one with Google TV?

[RESET_9999]

Is that the new one with Google TV?

yes

[mulucy]

Just got a Chromecast, and I confirm that it's a FEL DV capable device. The ending credits of Power rangers is bright white... FEL noise visible on test file as confirmed before. great player for my bedroom TV

player-led and tv-led seem to be behaving strangely ... on my C8 OLED I'm only getting LLDV(player-led) but on my cheap Vizio TV which doesn't support LLDV I get TV-led DV. HDR10 and SDR are color accurate.
*tested iTunes, Movies Anywhere, and PLEX

also, no red push in the Dr. Sleep p7 rip. The Shield is really the only device that has color issues and yet, the nvidia staff still say that they don't see any difference ...

This is fantastic news! Might consider to get myself as well! Thank you for all the tests and contributions you have done so far!

A question about the Shield, is it confirmed that its playing the FEL DV with noise and Power Range ending credit scene tests?