Trouble with dynamically incoming and outgoing subtitles

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BlueVelvet
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Trouble with dynamically incoming and outgoing subtitles

Post by BlueVelvet »

I have a problem again, about which I have not yet been able to find any posts or other announcements on the net.

It's about subtitles. I found the following problem with the series "Ein Käfig voller Helden" (Org. "Hogans Heros"; DVD) and with "Killers Bodybuard" (Org. "Hitmans Bodyguard"; Blu-Ray).

The subtitles are switched on and off dynamically in the film. So there are no forced or default subtitles.

E.g. Killers Bodyguard, no subtitles are active here, unless the dictator's Russian helpers are chatting or when Michael Bryce and Amelia Roussel have the rather short French banter, then the German subtitles are suddenly active. If German is spoken again, the subtitles are off again.

Has anyone ever noticed something like this? As a format, is MKV in principle able to map this? If yes how? Can MakeMKV do that? Or do you have to rework it, e.g. with MKVToolNix or similar?

All questions to which I unfortunately couldn't find an answer on the internet ... but maybe I'm just looking wrong ... I'm curious ...
Woodstock
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Re: Trouble with dynamically incoming and outgoing subtitles

Post by Woodstock »

That depends on what the disk author did.

Some disks will not provide subtitles for "unimportant dialog". The Longest Day, for example, only uses subtitles when the non-English dialog is important. Greetings between officers are ignored, but discussion of actual plans is subtitled.You can see this in Star Wars, where the human's response to the alien dialog is sufficient to tell what was said.

But that is usually reflected in the subtitle tracks themselves - they don't "switch in and out", they simply do not have subtitles everywhere.
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BlueVelvet
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Re: Trouble with dynamically incoming and outgoing subtitles

Post by BlueVelvet »

I have to contradict that. The disc starts without subtitles (depending on the video player you can see which subtitle is currently active or whether none is active), and in the middle it suddenly shows me subtitles. In the case of Hogans Heroes, there is only one German subtitle track, and it is switched on and off dynamically (or via a flag?).

The remaining questions are:
- can that map the MKV format?
- Can the MakeMKV interpret this correctly?

I mean, I'm just really insecure now. I copied some discs without subtitles because no one was active when the film started ... but if other films follow the same principle, then good night. In the case of Hitman's Bodyguard, the Russian dialogues are quite interesting if you can read them in German.
dcoke22
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Re: Trouble with dynamically incoming and outgoing subtitles

Post by dcoke22 »

I don't happen to have The Hitman's Bodyguard (2017) or Hogan's Heroes TV Show to check. However, if you were to make a rip of a movie and select all the subtitle tracks of the relevant languages, you can then check how many elements are in each track with the 'mediainfo' tool (https://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo).

For example, from The Hunt for Red October (1990) [the USA, English language release]:

Code: Select all

Text #1
ID                                       : 5
ID in the original source medium         : 4608 (0x1200)
Format                                   : PGS
Codec ID                                 : S_HDMV/PGS
Codec ID/Info                            : Picture based subtitle format used on BDs/HD-DVDs
Duration                                 : 2 h 9 min
Bit rate                                 : 40.5 kb/s
Count of elements                        : 3059
Stream size                              : 37.6 MiB (0%)
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : No
Forced                                   : No
Original source medium                   : Blu-ray

Text #2
ID                                       : 6
ID in the original source medium         : 4608 (0x1200)
Format                                   : PGS
Codec ID                                 : S_HDMV/PGS
Codec ID/Info                            : Picture based subtitle format used on BDs/HD-DVDs
Duration                                 : 2 h 4 min
Bit rate                                 : 503 b/s
Count of elements                        : 52
Stream size                              : 458 KiB (0%)
Title                                    : Forced Subtitles
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : Yes
Forced                                   : No
Original source medium                   : Blu-ray

Text #3
ID                                       : 7
ID in the original source medium         : 4609 (0x1201)
Format                                   : PGS
Codec ID                                 : S_HDMV/PGS
Codec ID/Info                            : Picture based subtitle format used on BDs/HD-DVDs
Duration                                 : 2 h 9 min
Bit rate                                 : 42.8 kb/s
Count of elements                        : 3239
Stream size                              : 39.8 MiB (0%)
Language                                 : English
Default                                  : No
Forced                                   : No
Original source medium                   : Blu-ray
The 'Count of elements' line shows the varying number of elements in the three subtitle tracks. The first one, with 3059 elements is subtitles for all the spoken dialog. The second, with 52 elements, is just the 'forced' bits; the parts where the Russian crew is speaking Russian. The third track, with 3239 elements, is the SDH track, which has all the subtitles for the spoken dialog plus some text to describe important sounds on the screen like "(Fog Horn Blowing)" for example, for deaf people.

In any case, this is a quick way to determine if a seemingly empty subtitle track does in fact have something in it.
BlueVelvet
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Re: Trouble with dynamically incoming and outgoing subtitles

Post by BlueVelvet »

You are talking about a disc that has different subtitle tracks. Of course, I have to copy the right one, that's all clear to me.

I'm talking about a disc that has only one that is activated dynamically.

If I knew which disks all of this have, I could give you one, but you need them for that too. The problem: You seem to be English-speaking, I am German-speaking. That's why I have German discs on the shelf that I copy to my NAS.

Obviously, I'm bringing up a topic that no one has ever noticed. And of course no one wants to admit or believe that they have rotten eggs in the film collection on the NAS.

But to your tip:

Making a rip from the DVD to the record and then checking it is doomed to fail. Why? I'll tell you, but I'll have to go back a little too long.

When I look at the disc on the PS3 or the XBox, then at the very beginning, when the title of the series begins with "Hogan's Heroes", the subtitle that reads in German "Ein Käfig voller Helden". After that, no further subtitles can be seen. I noticed the same behavior with a colleague on his BluRay player.

If I open the DVD with MakeMKV, I only see one German subtitle track that I could copy. If I do that and then display the MKV with the subtitle track activated, all (!) Dialogues are subtitled.

Now I've looked at the disc in VLC. In order for this to work, I checked the MakeMKV for VLC in the settings (tab integration). BUT: now I don't see any subtitles at all, and according to the settings none are activated.

Does the MakeMKV process the disc incorrectly? I say yes!

Since I don't always just ask stupid questions, but every now and then also find something myself, I looked again at a page that I have read up and down three times: Subtitle encoding knowledge. And actually I found something this time:
Because this type of subtitle is so necessary, it should definitely be displayed, regardless of whether we have activated the subtitle display or not. Such a mechanism exists on DVD and Blu-ray in the form of forced subs. This ensures that important text does not slip through our fingers. Forced subs come in two variants.

- Either there is a separate track that only contains the compulsory subtitles. When playing, the player then ensures that this track is activated in any case. This is rather unusual on the DVD.
- Much more often, the forced subtitles are contained in a normal track that contains all dialogues and all other text information. For some of the subtitles in this track a forced flag is set so that they (and only those) are displayed even if the subtitles are switched off while watching.
The second sentence (Much more often, ...) is the key, I think. The forced flag is not only the flag that outputs a subtitle as forced subtitle, it can also only declare parts of a subtitle as forced, but parts of the subtitle that are not declared as forced remain hidden for the time being.

And I mean, the MakeMV cannot (yet) map that.
Chetwood
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Re: Trouble with dynamically incoming and outgoing subtitles

Post by Chetwood »

BlueVelvet wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:09 pm
Obviously, I'm bringing up a topic that no one has ever noticed.
Yeah, right. There's tons of posts on forced subtitles and the fact that single items flagged as forced are not possible with MKV. You have to include all forced items into one track which then is set to forced. Luckily MakeMKV does that if the disc is properly authored.
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BlueVelvet
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Re: Trouble with dynamically incoming and outgoing subtitles

Post by BlueVelvet »

So, let's summarize:

- MKV is unable to save the subtitle track as it is on the disc. Either all or nothing.
- MakeMKV can get this across correctly if the disc was created correctly. But how do I know if a disc was not created correctly? The films that I stumbled upon have so far only been shown incorrectly by MakeMKV.
- in the forum there are tons of posts on the topic ... that may be, but sorry, I am not so good at English, I have my posts translated by Google. I find it really difficult to find the correct posts in the forum.

It would be easy now (I apologize for my naive worldview) if the MakeMKV could create a new intertitle track from the parts of a subtitle marked as forced and integrate it into the MKV file.

Perhaps someone knows a tool that can read out the subtitle in such a way that only the sections marked as forced are in it, so that I can later integrate it into the MKV file? That would be my naive solution now ...
Chetwood
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Re: Trouble with dynamically incoming and outgoing subtitles

Post by Chetwood »

Noch mal zum Mitschreiben:
  • MakeMKV muxt die Untertitel unverändert in einen Track der MKV
  • sind einzelne items als forced geflaggt, behalten die dieses Attribut; es hängt aber vom Player ab, ob der die dann anzeigt. VLC zeigt sie nicht an, MPC-HC schon. Generell richten sich die Player nach dem Flag des Tracks (kein, default, forced) und nicht nach den Flags der items.
  • sind items als forced geflaggt, kann MakeMKV die alle in einen separaten Track muxen und diesen als forced kennzeichnen
  • auf US BDs sind die items fast immer in einem separaten Track gespeichert und NICHT geflaggt. Daher kann MakeMKV sie nicht also solche erkennen.
Die einfachste Methode ist daher, ALLE Tracks zu rippen und beim Abspielen der MKV danach durch die Tracks zu wechseln. Ist ein deutscher Sub ausgewählt und es sind keine items zu sehen, obwohl jemand spricht, ist das wahrscheinlich der forced sub. Mit dem Header Editor von MKVToolnix stellt man den dann auf forced ohne remuxen zu müssen.

BDSup2Sub zeigt bei an, welche items als forced geflaggt sind. Dazu müsste man die aber per TsMuxer aus der m2ts oder per MKVCleaver aus dem MKV extrahieren. Den Schritt spart man sich beim Rippen aller Untertitel.
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BlueVelvet
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Re: Trouble with dynamically incoming and outgoing subtitles

Post by BlueVelvet »

Ich glaub, ich muss da mal den aktuellen Stand sortieren.

Mir ist zwischenzeitlich schon klar geworden, wie ich bei einer BD nur die als forced markirten Teile der Untertitel reinpacke. Das Thema BD ist daher schon abgehakt (aber wenn mir irgendjemand direkt gesagt hätte, dass der Unterpunkt "nur erzwungene" aus einer Untertitelspur nur die erzwungenen Segmente in eine eigene MKV Untertitelspur packt, wäre das auch viel schneller abgehakt gewesen. Aber geschenkt).

Nebenbei: MPC-HC würde ich mal lieber nicht mehr verwenden: v1.7.13 is released and farewell

Zurück zum Thema. Mein Problem ist jetzt noch, dass meine DVD's irgendwie das selbe Prinzip verwenden: ich hab nur eine deutsche Untertitelspur, und auch wenn die aus ist, werden die dort gespeicherten Untertitel teilweise beim Abspielen auf PS3 oder XBox angezeigt. Hier hab ich aber im MakeMKV keine Möglichkeit, "nur erzwungene" Untertitel anzuhaken.

Rippe ich die DVD mit allen Untertitel-Tracks, hab ich hinterher in der MKV Datei einen deutschen und einen englischen Untertitel Track mit allen (!) Texten, nicht nur mit denen, die mir beim Abspielen auf der PS3 / der XBox angezeigt werden.

Laut MakeMKV hab ich diese Info vom Untertitel:
Spurinformationen
Typ: Untertitel
Sprache: German
Codec: Dvd Subtitles
MKV Flags: Default
Wenn eine DVD dieses Verfahren eigentlich nicht unterstützt, dann weiß ich nicht, wie das bewerkstelligt wurde.
Chetwood
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Re: Trouble with dynamically incoming and outgoing subtitles

Post by Chetwood »

BlueVelvet wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:20 am
Nebenbei: MPC-HC würde ich mal lieber nicht mehr verwenden: v1.7.13 is released and farewell
So what? Die Formate, die ich abspiele, ändern sich nicht, es sind keine ausführbaren Dateien und übers Internet wird da auch nichts gezogen.
BlueVelvet wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:20 am
Mein Problem ist jetzt noch, dass meine DVD's irgendwie das selbe Prinzip verwenden: ich hab nur eine deutsche Untertitelspur, und auch wenn die aus ist, werden die dort gespeicherten Untertitel teilweise beim Abspielen auf PS3 oder XBox angezeigt. Hier hab ich aber im MakeMKV keine Möglichkeit, "nur erzwungene" Untertitel anzuhaken.
Mike hat anscheinend andere Features wichtiger gefunden und das bisher immer noch nicht eingebaut. Workaround ist daher, den kompletten Sub mit MKVCleaver zu extrahieren, in BDSupP2Sub nur die forced items zu extrahieren und mit MKVToolnix die neue Spur ins bestehende MKV zu muxen.
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BlueVelvet
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Re: Trouble with dynamically incoming and outgoing subtitles

Post by BlueVelvet »

Chetwood wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:23 am
So what? Die Formate, die ich abspiele, ändern sich nicht, es sind keine ausführbaren Dateien und übers Internet wird da auch nichts gezogen.
Mach Dich mal mit dem Thema Exploits, speziell Zero Day Exploits vertraut ...

Der Punkt ist, dass Sicherheitslücken nicht unbedingt im Lauf der Zeit entstehen, sondern nach und nach "nur" gefunden werden, da sie schon immer existiert haben und es nur keiner wusste. Wenns einer von den "guten" findet, meldet er das dem Hersteller und der machts zu (so die Idealwelt). Findets einer von den "bösen", gibts ein Exploit, im schlimmsten Fall eines, dass sich selbst verbreitet und einfach auf allen Rechnern, die es erreicht, nach der Lücke zu suchen und falls sie gefunden wird, darüber seinen Schadcode auf den Rechner aufspielen.

Aber was ist, wenn der Hersteller auf die Anfrage vom "guten" nicht reagiert? Nicht wenige machen die Lücke dann öffentlich. Ist ein heißes Eisen, aber man weiß ja nicht unbedingt, ob es nicht schon ein Exploit gibt, solange keiner drüber redet.

Software, die der Hersteller nicht mehr pflegt, fliegt bei mir instant vom Rechner/Handy. Und MPC-HC hat mittlerweile 4 Jahre ohne Pflege am Buckel ... ich halte 3 Monate ohne Aufsicht schon für sehr kritisch ...

Was man tun kann: eine Virtual Box für den MPC-HC aufsetzen, ohne Connect auf die Host-Laufwerke oder ins Netz, und Filme, die Du abspielen/analysieren willst, als Read Only Laufwerk in die VM einbinden. Hast Du Windows 10 (oder 11) pro, ist (soweit mein aktueller Stand) eine virtuelle Lizenz, die als Guest auf dem selben Host läuft, sogar in der pro-Lizenz inbegriffen.

Wegen dem SubTitele: ich werd Deinen Rat mal checken, mal sehen, wie ich vorwärts komme.

DANKE Euch allen!!

Thank you all!!
Chetwood
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Re: Trouble with dynamically incoming and outgoing subtitles

Post by Chetwood »

BlueVelvet wrote:
Sun Sep 19, 2021 8:27 am
Ist ein heißes Eisen, aber man weiß ja nicht unbedingt, ob es nicht schon ein Exploit gibt, solange keiner drüber redet.
Der nichts exploiten wird, weil ich MEINE Dateien gucke und das Ding sich nicht mit dem Internet verbindet. Aber das ist nun eh zu OT.
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vionsur
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Re: Trouble with dynamically incoming and outgoing subtitles

Post by vionsur »

Some disks will not provide subtitles for "unimportant dialog".
boz358
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Re: Trouble with dynamically incoming and outgoing subtitles

Post by boz358 »

I know of 3 types of forced subtitles that DVD and Blu-ray discs use. Two of them are easy to use in any playback software, but the third, from what I've learned, only works in Kodi.

The first type is hardcoded or "baked in" into the video itself. These can't be turned off.

The second type is where the forced part is in a subtitle stream separate from the main subtitle stream.

The third, where very few playback software support it, is where the forced parts are embedded in the main subtitle stream. Software needs to be able to "pick up" the forced parts while the main subtitle stream is turned off. The only software I know of that can do this is Kodi.

I've got 3 Blu-rays that use the third type: District 9, Elysium and Chappie. All 3 are from the same director.
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