Forced subtitles

[DukeFleed]

Here is a screenshot of the main subs with captions.
https://imgur.com/a/PL0EFC1

Here is a screenshot of the main subs without captions.
https://imgur.com/a/GCEh33P

I was asking which version do most people prefer? For example, I want to remove one of them with mkvtoolnix and wanted to ask your preference. Main subs with captions will also include things other than dialogue. For example, if there is laughter in the background it will display "people laughing."

In the first screenshot, those are subtitles for the hearing impaired, while in the second screenshot they aren't. I prefer the latter.

[dcoke22]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subtitles#Subtitles_for_the_deaf_or_hard-of-hearing_(SDH)

I generally prefer the non-SDH subtitles.

[leosantare]

Yes, I agree. I prefer the non SDH main subtitles. The problem is that some of my mkv's only have one version of the main subtitles and they are the SDH version. Therefore, if I want all my main subs to be the same version, I will have to choose the SDH version for all my mkv's. Then again, I could run into a mkv that only offers the non SDH version and then I will be forced to a mix between the two. Either way, this is kind of disappointing. Any way around this? For example, can you turn a SDH version into a non SDH version?

I used mkvtoolnix for a mkv that has a forced sub track. I selected the main (non SDH) track and the forced sub track. When I opened it in VLC, the forced sub track selected by default which is track #2. I also have the option to select track #1 which is the main (non SDH) track which also includes the forced sub track. As you know, you can only select one track at a time, at least when using VLC. For mkv's that have a forced subtitle track, are the forced subs also included in the main sub track every time? Otherwise, you would be missing the forced subs when wanting to see the main subs.

[DukeFleed]

For example, can you turn a SDH version into a non SDH version?

No.

For mkv's that have a forced subtitle track, are the forced subs also included in the main sub track every time?

Yes.

[flojo]

For example, can you turn a SDH version into a non SDH version?

No.

For mkv's that have a forced subtitle track, are the forced subs also included in the main sub track every time?

Yes.

That Yes should be a No. I *think* it was John Wick where the forced subs had the language translated but the non-forced didn't. I don't remember if it didn't print anything at those parts or if it said something like "[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE]", but I found it odd that both tracks didn't have the translation equally.

As for the SDH to non-SDH question; being that "SDH" has mutated into meaning "closed captions for non-OTA media without OTA limitations", then effectively "non-SDH" == "SDH". If you went through them by hand, it's easier to remove text than to add it, so SDH -> non-SDH is definitely the easiest of the 2 directions.

[leosantare]

As for the SDH to non-SDH question; being that "SDH" has mutated into meaning "closed captions for non-OTA media without OTA limitations", then effectively "non-SDH" == "SDH". If you went through them by hand, it's easier to remove text than to add it, so SDH -> non-SDH is definitely the easiest of the 2 directions.
[/quote]

I don't understand. Are you telling me that you can turn a SDH track into a non-SDH track? If so, how?

[leosantare]

When using mkvtoolnix, are the subtitle tracks always displayed downward? Meaning whatever track #1 is in VLC, it will always be the top track listed in mkvtoolnix. Track #2 in VLC will always be the second from the top in mkvtoolnix and so on. (please see screenshot to avoid any confusion)
https://imgur.com/a/EdsTSgr

As I mentioned, unfortunately I have some mkvs that only have the main sub track as SDH. Do you ever run into mkv's that only have the main sub track as non-SDH instead? If you come across a mkv that only offers the main sub track as SDH, do you even bother keeping it? Another way to ask, would you rather have a main sub track as SDH instead of nothing?

I see you have the option of naming the subtitle tracks in mkvtoolnix. In my case, all my mkvs will only have (1) main sub track to choose from. All my mkvs with a forced sub track will be selected by default. Therefore, if a forced sub track is selected by default, you know the other one has to the main sub track. With that being said, do you recommend I name them? If so, would you name them "main" and "forced"?

I should be all set now and thanks again. My only other question is related to VLC. I tried starting another discussion on this forum and have asked this question about 8 times. Unfortunately, no one has replied. Can anyone who uses VLC, please let me know, it's very important to me.
Do most people think mkv's appear darker than they should in VLC? (I'm just wondering if VLC is known for this or if it's just me.)

[DukeFleed]

For mkv's that have a forced subtitle track, are the forced subs also included in the main sub track every time?

Yes.

That Yes should be a No. I *think* it was John Wick where the forced subs had the language translated but the non-forced didn't. I don't remember if it didn't print anything at those parts or if it said something like "[SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE]", but I found it odd that both tracks didn't have the translation equally.

Maybe I should have added, barring exceptions
In my 1200+ titles, though, it's never happened.

When using mkvtoolnix, are the subtitle tracks always displayed downward? Meaning whatever track #1 is in VLC, it will always be the top track listed in mkvtoolnix. Track #2 in VLC will always be the second from the top in mkvtoolnix and so on. (please see screenshot to avoid any confusion)
https://imgur.com/a/EdsTSgr

Yes, it's the same order.

As I mentioned, unfortunately I have some mkvs that only have the main sub track as SDH. Do you ever run into mkv's that only have the main sub track as non-SDH instead? If you come across a mkv that only offers the main sub track as SDH, do you even bother keeping it? Another way to ask, would you rather have a main sub track as SDH instead of nothing?

I see you have the option of naming the subtitle tracks in mkvtoolnix. In my case, all my mkvs will only have (1) main sub track to choose from. All my mkvs with a forced sub track will be selected by default. Therefore, if a forced sub track is selected by default, you know the other one has to the main sub track. With that being said, do you recommend I name them? If so, would you name them "main" and "forced"?

I don't know how others do it, but I rename both the audio track and the subtitle tracks. I save the track for my language and label it, for example, DD5.1, DTS-HD, etc., and as I've mentioned in other posts, I usually save all the subtitle tracks: main (if the latter is only for the hearing impaired, I save it anyway), forced subtitles, and commentaries (only for movies and TV series episodes I like). I label the main subtitle track as Sub Ita (my language), the forced subtitle track as Forced or Forced Sub, and the commentary tracks as Comments, but if there is more than one, then Comments #1, Comments #2, etc.

[leosantare]

Okay, got it. Thanks!

Why do you use subtitle edit? For example, do you convert your subtitles to another format?

I understand all 4k Ultra HD Blu-rays have HDMV PGS subtitles. If so, then all my subtitles will be HDMV PSG format. Do you see any reason to convert them to another format and/or edit them?

I did notice the placement of the subtitles vary for my mkv's. The placement is half on and half off the bottom black bar for one of my mkv's so far. (see below)
https://imgur.com/a/dIpEpYG

Perhaps, the placement can be modified so that the placement is exactly the same for all my mkv's. Also, maybe you can turn a SDH track into a non-SDH track by manually deleting things with subtitle edit. I assume this would take a very long time and not sure if I would even want to.

I did get conformation that VLC will have a fix for the black subtitles with HDR soon. This is great news for me since the subtitles are pretty much useless. I thought I would pass the news along as there are a lot of people complaining about this.
https://imgur.com/a/fvnGL9J

[DukeFleed]

Okay, got it. Thanks!

Why do you use subtitle edit? For example, do you convert your subtitles to another format?

I understand all 4k Ultra HD Blu-rays have HDMV PGS subtitles. If so, then all my subtitles will be HDMV PSG format. Do you see any reason to convert them to another format and/or edit them?

I convert PGS subtitles to vobsub (.idx/.sub) or subrip (.srt) because my very old Asus media player doesn't read PGS subtitles. For this reason, I'd also like to buy another media player. I've even created a forum thread asking about the Dune HD Homatics Box R 4K Plus player, but I haven't bought it yet. I'm thinking about it.

I did notice the placement of the subtitles vary for my mkv's. The placement is half on and half off the bottom black bar for one of my mkv's so far. (see below)
https://imgur.com/a/dIpEpYG

Perhaps, the placement can be modified so that the placement is exactly the same for all my mkv's. Also, maybe you can turn a SDH track into a non-SDH track by manually deleting things with subtitle edit. I assume this would take a very long time and not sure if I would even want to.

I don't know how to change the position of the subtitles when they appear on the screen.

As for converting the SDH track to a non-SDH one, yes, I think it can only be done manually; in fact, I don't know if there are any apps that do it. But it would be a lot of work, and besides, as I said, I save the main subtitle track even if it's only SDH.

[dcoke22]

Lots of players have ways for the users to move where the subtitles are displayed.

https://www.vlchelp.com/how-to-change-subtitle-position-in-vlc/

[Chetwood]

When using mkvtoolnix, are the subtitle tracks always displayed downward? Meaning whatever track #1 is in VLC, it will always be the top track listed in mkvtoolnix. Track #2 in VLC will always be the second from the top in mkvtoolnix and so on.

But even if I did that, and found out that there are forced subtitles, I wouldn't be sure of the exact order of the subtitle tracks in the MakeMKV screen, and therefore which one to select/deselect.

It's always the same order in all apps and on the disc and so you know which ones to (de)select!

Why do you use subtitle edit? For example, do you convert your subtitles to another format?

OCR'ed to SRT you can have Subtitle Edit easily remove text for the hearing impaired as explained in the FAQ.

[DukeFleed]

But even if I did that, and found out that there are forced subtitles, I wouldn't be sure of the exact order of the subtitle tracks in the MakeMKV screen, and therefore which one to select/deselect.

It's always the same order in all apps and on the disc and so you know which ones to (de)select!

I always prefer to select all the tracks to be safe, it doesn't cost me anything.

Why do you use subtitle edit? For example, do you convert your subtitles to another format?

OCR'ed to SRT you can have Subtitle Edit easily remove text for the hearing impaired as explained in the FAQ.

I didn't know that, interesting.