Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

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galarond
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:22 am

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by galarond »

i have Dv activated and seems to work diferent with usb files because only a few non hdr/dv movies are converted as Dv, the rest stays as SDR
HarperVision
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:32 am

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by HarperVision »

RESET_9999 wrote:
chros wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:55 am
Would you do similar experiment, what happens when you convert hdr10 to DV on the fly?
Fake DV vs Real HDR10: https://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/12710
Real DV (p5 web) vs Real HDR10: https://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/12712

As you can see, it just brightens the image. I wouldn't recommend using the x700 HDR10/SDR to DV on the fly conversion.

Image
It only appears to brighten the image because it is now properly tone mapping the output to the display’s reported capabilities such as peak luminance, instead of sending 1,000 nit content to a display with less than that luminance available while using a static PQ curve, making the luminance levels fall in the incorrect place, making the scene darker than it should be.

In other words, what’s supposed to be at say digital 10 bit code 150 is now at that proper level, whereas before it was artificially being crushed and lowered to all 1,000 nits into say a 200 nit static container.

azreil24 wrote:All Sony players convert everything to DV if you have the DV option activated. It sounds cool, but it isn't as it sends SDR content in DV container and messes up the colors and everything. At least that's how it works with discs and the reason I sold it, as I was tired of having to manually activate DV based on movie.
This is incorrect if the display maps the colors and dynamic range as it should. If it doesn’t that’s on the display you’re using, not the player.

Colors within any of the color gamuts will be completely identical whether they be Rec709, DCI-P3 or BT2020, up to each of their limits of course. So putting a Rec709 source into a wider P3 or BT2020 container should look and display identically when the gamuts are mapped properly since Rec709 is smaller than either of those wider gamuts. It’s not supposed to stretch the colors at all and if it does then your display is doing it wrong, not the source.

I have both an X700 and an X800M2 as well as an AppleTV 4K and they don’t have any of the issues reported with my displays because they map the signal correctly.
Manixx2020beyound
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2020 5:19 pm

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by Manixx2020beyound »

HarperVision wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:37 am
RESET_9999 wrote:
chros wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:55 am
Would you do similar experiment, what happens when you convert hdr10 to DV on the fly?
Fake DV vs Real HDR10: https://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/12710
Real DV (p5 web) vs Real HDR10: https://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/12712

As you can see, it just brightens the image. I wouldn't recommend using the x700 HDR10/SDR to DV on the fly conversion.

Image
It only appears to brighten the image because it is now properly tone mapping the output to the display’s reported capabilities such as peak luminance, instead of sending 1,000 nit content to a display with less than that luminance available while using a static PQ curve, making the luminance levels fall in the incorrect place, making the scene darker than it should be.

In other words, what’s supposed to be at say digital 10 bit code 150 is now at that proper level, whereas before it was artificially being crushed and lowered to all 1,000 nits into say a 200 nit static container.

azreil24 wrote:All Sony players convert everything to DV if you have the DV option activated. It sounds cool, but it isn't as it sends SDR content in DV container and messes up the colors and everything. At least that's how it works with discs and the reason I sold it, as I was tired of having to manually activate DV based on movie.
This is incorrect if the display maps the colors and dynamic range as it should. If it doesn’t that’s on the display you’re using, not the player.

Colors within any of the color gamuts will be completely identical whether they be Rec709, DCI-P3 or BT2020, up to each of their limits of course. So putting a Rec709 source into a wider P3 or BT2020 container should look and display identically when the gamuts are mapped properly since Rec709 is smaller than either of those wider gamuts. It’s not supposed to stretch the colors at all and if it does then your display is doing it wrong, not the source.

I have both an X700 and an X800M2 as well as an AppleTV 4K and they don’t have any of the issues reported with my displays because they map the signal correctly.
So, sending the natural movie peek 1000 nit brightness should clear up the artificial crushing of the blacks
Instead of the oled peek 700nit display.
Will test that method now again.
HarperVision
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:32 am

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by HarperVision »

Manixx2020beyound wrote:
HarperVision wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:37 am
RESET_9999 wrote: Fake DV vs Real HDR10: https://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/12710
Real DV (p5 web) vs Real HDR10: https://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/12712

As you can see, it just brightens the image. I wouldn't recommend using the x700 HDR10/SDR to DV on the fly conversion.

Image
It only appears to brighten the image because it is now properly tone mapping the output to the display’s reported capabilities such as peak luminance, instead of sending 1,000 nit content to a display with less than that luminance available while using a static PQ curve, making the luminance levels fall in the incorrect place, making the scene darker than it should be.

In other words, what’s supposed to be at say digital 10 bit code 150 is now at that proper level, whereas before it was artificially being crushed and lowered to all 1,000 nits into say a 200 nit static container.

azreil24 wrote:All Sony players convert everything to DV if you have the DV option activated. It sounds cool, but it isn't as it sends SDR content in DV container and messes up the colors and everything. At least that's how it works with discs and the reason I sold it, as I was tired of having to manually activate DV based on movie.
This is incorrect if the display maps the colors and dynamic range as it should. If it doesn’t that’s on the display you’re using, not the player.

Colors within any of the color gamuts will be completely identical whether they be Rec709, DCI-P3 or BT2020, up to each of their limits of course. So putting a Rec709 source into a wider P3 or BT2020 container should look and display identically when the gamuts are mapped properly since Rec709 is smaller than either of those wider gamuts. It’s not supposed to stretch the colors at all and if it does then your display is doing it wrong, not the source.

I have both an X700 and an X800M2 as well as an AppleTV 4K and they don’t have any of the issues reported with my displays because they map the signal correctly.
So, sending the natural movie peek 1000 nit brightness should clear up the artificial crushing of the blacks
Instead of the oled peek 700nit display.
Will test that method now again.
No I think you have it reversed and are thinking in the same terms as @RESET_9999.

If you send 1,000 nit peak, non-tone mapped source into a display that only has 700 nits total brightness/luminance available it will pretty much do one of three things, depending on the manufacturer and what they’ve decided to implement. It will either:

1. Display the source signal up to 700 nits and clip everything from 700-1,000 nits.

2. Display the source signal by compressing all of the 1,000 nit luminance into the 700 nits available. This is what makes the image darker because all the levels are lowered by ~30%, as RESET_9999 is seeing. This is how displays did it when HDR was first a thing and everyone complained that they hated HDR because it was “too dark”.

3. Display the source signal by tone mapping to the available peak luminance of the display, in this case 700 nits, but the key to this is maintaining the diffuse white level while tone mapping, which is basically leaving all the main picture information in essentially the “SDR” range (initially ~100 nits but now they’re mastering at 203 nits) and then only tone mapping everything above that level, known as the specular highlights (the sun, explosions, fire, lights or the sun glinting off of chrome, bright spotlights, etc.). This is what gives HDR video the more realistic look and feel compared to SDR, which can’t resolve specular highlights while maintaining detail in the low APL (dark) scenes.

So what I was trying to convey, probably confusingly in my prior post, was that what RESET_9999 was seeing wasn’t just “the image getting brighter” when tone mapping regular HDR10 to DV. He was seeing option 2 above (native HDR without tone mapping on a lower nit display) vs an image with its proper tone mapping and levels implemented with the amazing Dolby Vision processing which is option 3 above, so to him it just “looked brighter”, but in actually he was finally seeing it correctly displayed as it was mastered.
chros
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:36 am

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by chros »

Thanks for chiming in, it's good to talk to people who know their stuff :)

But I think this case is different: if I'm not mistaken, reset9999 has an LG C8, I have a B8 (apart form the peak nit capability they behave the same), these sets also do type 3 (not 2).
This is how it responds to various HDR10 metadata, so let's assume 1000 nits maxCLL.
I'll post similar graphs about 4 DoVi presets tomorrow, but even the most accurate Cinema preset brightens the image between 30%-70%, and that is clearly visible with normal content as well.

I only used SDR to DoVi upconversion with the Oppo, I observed 2 drawbacks (compared to 3dlut profiled SDR preset), hence I stopped using it:
- "shadow detail" is sometimes way more elevated almost at disturbing level (maybe it is related to the aformentioned brightening of middle range)
- colors get desaturated sometimes

I'm not sure what exactly the reason behind these, because most of the sime there's no issue at all.
RESET_9999
Posts: 473
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:12 pm

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by RESET_9999 »

Just got a Chromecast, and I confirm that it's a FEL DV capable device. The ending credits of Power rangers is bright white... FEL noise visible on test file as confirmed before. great player for my bedroom TV :)

player-led and tv-led seem to be behaving strangely ... on my C8 OLED I'm only getting LLDV(player-led) but on my cheap Vizio TV which doesn't support LLDV I get TV-led DV. HDR10 and SDR are color accurate.
*tested iTunes, Movies Anywhere, and PLEX

also, no red push in the Dr. Sleep p7 rip. The Shield is really the only device that has color issues and yet, the nvidia staff still say that they don't see any difference :lol: ...

Image
Please forgive my English.
Sony x700 ----> Denon AVR ----> LG OLED C8
FIX the x700 DT-DL TS bug with this file
dvidebaek
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:11 am

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by dvidebaek »

RESET_9999 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:17 am
Just got a Chromecast, and I confirm that it's a FEL DV capable device. The ending credits of Power rangers is bright white... FEL noise visible on test file as confirmed before. great player for my bedroom TV :)

player-led and tv-led seem to be behaving strangely ... on my C8 OLED I'm only getting LLDV(player-led) but on my cheap Vizio TV which doesn't support LLDV I get TV-led DV. HDR10 and SDR are color accurate.
*tested iTunes, Movies Anywhere, and PLEX

also, no red push in the Dr. Sleep p7 rip. The Shield is really the only device that has color issues and yet, the nvidia staff still say that they don't see any difference :lol: ...

Image
Is that the new one with Google TV?
RESET_9999
Posts: 473
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:12 pm

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by RESET_9999 »

dvidebaek wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:59 am

Is that the new one with Google TV?
yes
Please forgive my English.
Sony x700 ----> Denon AVR ----> LG OLED C8
FIX the x700 DT-DL TS bug with this file
mulucy
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:08 pm

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by mulucy »

RESET_9999 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:17 am
Just got a Chromecast, and I confirm that it's a FEL DV capable device. The ending credits of Power rangers is bright white... FEL noise visible on test file as confirmed before. great player for my bedroom TV :)

player-led and tv-led seem to be behaving strangely ... on my C8 OLED I'm only getting LLDV(player-led) but on my cheap Vizio TV which doesn't support LLDV I get TV-led DV. HDR10 and SDR are color accurate.
*tested iTunes, Movies Anywhere, and PLEX

also, no red push in the Dr. Sleep p7 rip. The Shield is really the only device that has color issues and yet, the nvidia staff still say that they don't see any difference :lol: ...

Image
This is fantastic news! Might consider to get myself as well! Thank you for all the tests and contributions you have done so far!

A question about the Shield, is it confirmed that its playing the FEL DV with noise and Power Range ending credit scene tests?
Last edited by mulucy on Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
chros
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:36 am

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by chros »

chros wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:25 pm
Thanks for chiming in, it's good to talk to people who know their stuff :)

But I think this case is different: if I'm not mistaken, reset9999 has an LG C8, I have a B8 (apart form the peak nit capability they behave the same), these sets also do type 3 (not 2).
This is how it responds to various HDR10 metadata, so let's assume 1000 nits maxCLL.
I'll post similar graphs about 4 DoVi presets tomorrow, but even the most accurate Cinema preset brightens the image between 30%-70%, and that is clearly visible with normal content as well.

I only used SDR to DoVi upconversion with the Oppo, I observed 2 drawbacks (compared to 3dlut profiled SDR preset), hence I stopped using it:
- "shadow detail" is sometimes way more elevated almost at disturbing level (maybe it is related to the aformentioned brightening of middle range)
- colors get desaturated sometimes

I'm not sure what exactly the reason behind these, because most of the sime there's no issue at all.
I've added the B8 DoVi graphs into the post above.
RESET_9999
Posts: 473
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:12 pm

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by RESET_9999 »

mulucy wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:19 pm
A question about the Shield, is it confirmed that its playing the FEL DV with noise and Power Range ending credit scene tests?
The shield only supports MEL DV. it will play the FEL rip but will not decode the EL and will use only the dynamic metadata in RPU.
power rangers ending credits is dark grey and no FEL noise on the sample test file.
chros wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:32 pm

I've added the B8 DoVi graphs into the post above.
thank you
Please forgive my English.
Sony x700 ----> Denon AVR ----> LG OLED C8
FIX the x700 DT-DL TS bug with this file
mulucy
Posts: 86
Joined: Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:08 pm

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by mulucy »

RESET_9999 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:04 pm
mulucy wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:19 pm
A question about the Shield, is it confirmed that its playing the FEL DV with noise and Power Range ending credit scene tests?
The shield only supports MEL DV. it will play the FEL rip but will not decode the EL and will use only the dynamic metadata in RPU.
power rangers ending credits is dark grey and no FEL noise on the sample test file.
chros wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:32 pm

I've added the B8 DoVi graphs into the post above.
thank you
I appreciate it, thank you! I don't have any HD audio set up, will go with Google TV w Chromecast.
RESET_9999
Posts: 473
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:12 pm

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by RESET_9999 »

chros wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:32 pm

I've added the B8 DoVi graphs into the post above.
so since my TV use maxcll (or MDL when no maxcll) and because maxcll is not very reliable(often incorrect), is it better to use madvr ''output in hdr'' with peak set to 700nits? what do you use ?
Please forgive my English.
Sony x700 ----> Denon AVR ----> LG OLED C8
FIX the x700 DT-DL TS bug with this file
SamuriHL
Posts: 1783
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:32 pm

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by SamuriHL »

RESET_9999 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:30 pm
chros wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:32 pm

I've added the B8 DoVi graphs into the post above.
so since my TV use maxcll (or MDL when no maxcll) and because maxcll is not very reliable(often incorrect), is it better to use madvr ''output in hdr'' with peak set to 700nits? what do you use ?
On the C8 we're using 870 nits with madvr tone mapping. QuietVoid has posted some curves that work very well on our C8 with that NIT level.
DaMacFunkin
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:17 pm

Re: Dolby Vision now possible through MP4 Mux.

Post by DaMacFunkin »

mulucy wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:28 pm
RESET_9999 wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:04 pm
mulucy wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:19 pm
A question about the Shield, is it confirmed that its playing the FEL DV with noise and Power Range ending credit scene tests?
The shield only supports MEL DV. it will play the FEL rip but will not decode the EL and will use only the dynamic metadata in RPU.
power rangers ending credits is dark grey and no FEL noise on the sample test file.
chros wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:32 pm

I've added the B8 DoVi graphs into the post above.
thank you
I appreciate it, thank you! I don't have any HD audio set up, will go with Google TV w Chromecast.
Hi, remember the GTVwCC does not support frame rate matching.
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