Subtitle flags: Occasional missing Default flag

[Marc_G]

Hi folks,

I've been working hard to get my subtitles working properly on the various players I use, primarily MPC-HC using LAV, and I'm nearly to getting it perfect. MakeMKV does a great job ripping and is my favorite tool.

The only problem is that on some content, either bluray or DVD sourced, the "default flag" in one or more subtitle track that should be set to "no" is actually missing. I never realized that the flag could be altogether absent until recently, doing some work with the MKVMergeGUI header editor. I was trying to figure out why some subtitle tracks were being played that were actually full text rather than the forced subs I wanted. Went in with most tools and saw that their default flag was interpreted as YES. Opened up with the header editor and found that actually they had no flag at all.

Lots of software, including MediaInfoGUI and the LAV splitter subtitle selector seems to interpret missing default flag as "YES" instead of "NO."

It is possible to edit these with the header editor, but having to check every title after ripping is a bummer. I would post a sample clip somewhere, but using MKVMerge to cut out a snippet for examination always seems to result in the default flag being placed onto the track in the output... and there's no way to remove it (that I'm aware of) to simulate what MakeMKV puts out.

Examples include "Damages" season 5 (all episodes, first track has no default flag). DVD Movie: Me and You and Everyone we know" just for a few, but although these are both from DVD, I've seen it on bluray as well... just can't remember which titles. I'd say from a quick perusal it happens on something like 5-10% of my MakeMKV ripped content. (Higher % if you factor that TV series are lots of episodes)

Is there some setting I can tweak in MakeMKV to make sure that no "missing default flag" are written? Or is this some oddity of how the content happened to be mastered?

Thanks!

[Chetwood]

Board index » MakeMKV beta » Advanced MakeMKV usage > Conversion profiles

In the default.mmcp.xml set:

setFirstAudioTrackAsDefault - set "default" flag for a first audio track. Default - true.
setFirstSubtitleTrackAsDefault - set "default" flag for a first subtitle track. Default - true.

[Marc_G]

Thanks Chetwood for the reply!

I have a followup question. Sometimes the correct subtitle track I want is not the first. So, automatically marking the first sub track as Default=Yes may not be correct. Mostly I want to make sure there are no sub tracks with the Default flag completely absent. In other words the correct track marking may have the first (or any) sub track as default =yes or no, but no sub track should have the flag completely absent.

Does this make sense?

Marc

[Marc_G]

Oh, for what it's worth, I'm on Win7x64 SP1, using MakeMKV 1.8.6.

Any thoughts about the missing versus "no" default flag appreciated.

[Chetwood]

Can't remember any problems with playback in VLC with MakeMKV's default flagging. So if some track wasn't flagged at all, I certainly did not notice. Gonna do some testing.

[Marc_G]

Thanks Chetwood!

I opened a thread on Doom9 ( http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=169789 ) to see if there was an easy solution on the player end, and the initial response there is "no, default flag has to be present per specs."

Here's what the MKVMerge Header Editor shows for these tracks:



No flag at all!

[Marc_G]

I have entered a message with a picture of what I see in mkvmerge header editor on one of the affected files. It has a picture link and is being held for moderator review prior to going live. So, shortly you should be able to see what I see.

Note, I have noticed VLC seems to use different rules for subs... I have a custom rule in LAV that I use for mpc-hc. Works fine for me except for these absent-flag files.

[Woodstock]

VLC will take into account your language preferences, so even tracks not flagged as default can become default. Because I work mainly with Japanese stuff, I have VLC prefer English subtitles, so they show no matter what the file says as far as defaults.

[Marc_G]

I just noticed that a series from DVD I just ripped (Orphan Black [highly recommended!]) also exhibits the missing default flag. So, the missing flag was interpreted as Yes and it shows subs unless I manually turn them off.

I don't do many DVD-based TV series, so maybe this is actually a common problem in current MakeMKV in dealing with DVD-based TV series. Ripper Street season 1 also shows it (ripped from DVD).

I checked a movie from DVD I had, Girl in Progress, and it was missing the default flag too.

I checked some bluray series I've ripped (Falling Skies, season 2), Walking Dead season 3. No problems with any of these.

I've only recently started using rules-based subs so maybe this has been going on longer, and I just now notice it due to the way I'm playing the content.

VLC is not any better than MPC-HC... it inappropriately shows the subs on these files just like MPC-HC. Since the default track is missing, it's interpreted as YES and the subs show.

Seems to be pretty common problem in ripping DVD subs with MakeMKV, though I've seen some cases with BluRAy output too. Hopefully can be fixed for the future.

MArc

EDIT: I had Skins Season 3 (DVD) so I ripped that. Same problem. No negative default flag on the sub track.

[Chetwood]

but no sub track should have the flag completely absent.

You're right. I've tried to reproduce this in MKVToolnix's header editor but I could not remove the default track flag cause

This element is currently present in the file.
It cannot be removed because it is a mandatory header field.

which would suggest that MakeMKV is at fault here for not writing the flag at all. Hopefully Mike reads this.

[Chetwood]

Mosu has chimed in on Doom9 by linking to a FAQ entry that explains this (pasted here cause linking approval can take a long time):

Your player does not support a Matroska feature called "default element values". It's a bug in your player as that feature is mandatory for Matroska support.

The ?Matroska specifications know a feature called "default element values". These default values have been in place since the beginning in 2002. The meaning of the default value is that any application reading a Matroska file must use the default value if the element itself is not present in the file. For example, if the track headers for a track do not contain a "language" element then this means that the value "eng" must be used by the reading application because "eng" is the default value for the "language" element. Similar case for the "default track flag" element. If it is not present in the file then the value "1" ("on", "yes") must be used because it is the default value for the "default track flag" element.

Starting with version 4.0.0 mkvmerge does not write elements to output files whose value equals their default value. This mostly applies to the "language" and "default track flag" elements. If an application does not show "eng" as the track's language even though you've selected it in the GUI then please file a bug report for that application.

Which would suggest that MakeMKV should write those flags so as to not 'provoke' players to display tracks by default that aren't intended to be shown automatically.

[Marc_G]

Thanks for the legwork, Chetwood.

Mike, can you please make sure to correct this in an upcoming edit? The default flag should always be present, set to No by default, and never absent as it seems to be a lot of the time particularly on MKVs made from DVD content (and sometimes bluray content).

Thanks in advance for your consideration...

Marc