MakeMKV Multiple Playback Device Review (audio/chapters/subs

[Beck38]

I've been processing, recoding, burning, and storing HD/Bluray movies for the last 10+ years (some 30+TB worth on BD25/NAS) and decided to change my processing scheme with the recent drop in BD50 blank discs - whereas BD25/hub inkjet printable @ ~70cents vs ~$1.80 for BD50/hub injet printable, without of course the 15-24hrs of recoding time with a fast 6-8 core top-line CPU.

So, unless I wanted to spend the time pre-processing things (rip all the video/audio/subtitle tracks with tsmuxer and then combine it all with mkvmerge, I went out looking for something that would eliminate some time/steps in processing. Enter MakeMKV.

A note: Why not simply pull the movie out with tsmuxer to m2ts (the first step for processing with MakeMKV anyway), and play/burn/store that? For those who have played such a file, you'd find out that many players (stand-alone bluray, HTPC s/w players, etc) have various problems with such files, failing to either play parts of it (audio tracks/subtitle tracks) and/or lack chapter stops and such, not to mention the m2ts end of file stopping problems (which even modifying the structure commands to 'halt/break' the playback) has only partial success.

Having a pretty comprehensive collection of bluray players at my disposal, I've run some tests as to MakeMKV's ability to correctly encode the chapters, audio tracks, and subtitles, and here is what I've found:

(Note: all MKV's stop properly at the end of the movie stream, and go back to the machine menu, unlike the 'raw' m2ts files)

Player: Popcorn Hour (standalone linux networked player with additional USB and Bluray disc)
sees chapters, all audio tracks selectable/playable,
all subtitles selectable/playable

Sony 3D Bluray sees chapters, all audio tracks selectable/playable,
subtitles selectable but not playable (sound weird, but OSD says it's playing
but no subtitles appear on the video). USB and Bluray media tested

Sony 2D Bluray No chapters, all audio tracks selectable/playable,
no subtitles either selectable or playable. USB and Bluray media tested

LG 2D Bluray No Chapters, all audio tracks selectable/playable,
no subtitles either selectable or playable. USB and Bluray media tested

Samsung 3D Bluray No Chapters, all audio tracks selectable/playable,
no subtitles either selectable or playable. USB and Bluray media tested

Samsung 3D HDTV/SUHD (4K) 2016 model 8500 (USB media only)
No Chapters, all audio tracks selectable/playable,
no subtitles either selectable or playable

In short, the biggest failure is with subtitles, but why the chapters are also disappeared on several machines is unknown, although they are all playable/usable on the PCH box (which has the known ability to play just about anything and everything that one throws at it).

The Sony 3D Bluray player comes the closest to the PCH box, with only not showing the subtitles (again, although showing the subtitle selection in the on screen display which the others don't). All the machines listed play and show all the items listed WHEN the m2ts demuxed parts are recombined with mkvmerge, so there must be something incorrect with the mkv recombination processing in the MakeMKV program.

There are several other MKV generators out there that I'll be testing in the following week or so, and come back to this thread and post the results here.

FYI, I know that 'historically' the bluray subtitles have more bugs/problems than one can count, and there are several threads here noting many of them. But as I've run into most if not all of those problems in the past and managed to figure them out or correct them, from adding English translation tracks that are auto-selected, to adding both subtitles and audio tracks sourced from either bluray/dvd other edition discs that were left off better quality video releases and such. Believe me, I've just about seen and 'fixed' it all.

[Woodstock]

For the PGS subtitles that weren't playing, were they compressed when they were ripped (that is, using the WDTV profile, or one based on it) ? For SOME playback devices, that does make a difference. While the WDTV profile was created for the WDTV, it isn't the only device that wants them compressed with gzip. And yet other devices do not accept them compressed...

I've not done any testing with stand-alone BD players like you are doing... My BD player is collecting dust, because other devices work better.

[Beck38]

If I had gotten into pure streaming a few years back, when the WDTV box was still supported actively, I might have, but I just got into it with Roku in the last 6 months with the Roku4.

I based my local streaming network around the PCH boxes (primarily C200's). As far as playing commercial bluray's, there isn't anything around which can outdo consumer stand-alone boxes, several (like PCH) tried to do it in the early days, but couldn't keep up with the licensing issues. Of course, this was when such players were $3-400 and up. Everything except the Oppo's are now well below $150 if not $60 or so.

The blurays are decrypted with a commercial program and then processed with tsmuxer to 'pull out' the movie via the proper mpls to a 'movie only' bluray format. Then of course MakeMKV loads the the movie via the index.bdmv. I don't see where in the MakeMKV program any 'WDTV' profile setting is, or what you are talking about as to a 'WDTV ripping' profile, exactly in what program are you referencing?

The PGS subtitles that MakeMKV 'sees' and is muxing into the MKV are not processed in any way from what they would be from the original format on the Bluray disc itself. I see that apparently the WDTV box requires this non-standard zlib compression, and where mkvmerge has the settings to massage the PGS file so it can be played properly on the WDTV box. These constraints were obviously added 'back in the day' when the WDTV was one of the first 'internet streamers' on the market.

My next 'project' this year is, since I'm starting to standardize on the Roku4 box, is to run Plex. Hopefully, once I get that going I'll start to migrate off the PCH boxes. I wish that I could utilize a cloud service to back everything that's on my NAS array backed up, but cost constraints and the lack of decent upstream speeds (that may alleviate with Docsis3.1 in the next 2-4 years along with a cost reductions in the 'cloud'), but physical bluray's have been the way to go so far.

But anyway, I'd like to get the PGS subtitles to work off MakeMKV, without going through the additional hassle of demuxing everything and using mkvmerge. Like I said, I'll try some of the other MKV generator's out there.

[Chetwood]

I see that apparently the WDTV box requires this non-standard zlib compression, and where mkvmerge has the settings to massage the PGS file so it can be played properly on the WDTV box.

Actually, zlib compression IS part of the MKV standard. And MakeMKV compresses using the WDTV profile so there's no need for MKVToolnix.

[Beck38]

The compression was added simply because of the WDTV box, not that anyone else used it; in fact, nobody else does, and WDTV is barely mentioned these days as a streaming alternative.

What I've figured out in relationship to the subtitles (and PGS in particular), most every streaming box out there today supports it; the Popcorn Hour (PCH) was the first, and continues to do so through 5+ generations of machines. Reviewing several others, they all seem to.

The biggest lack on most of these 'micro' boxes is, no space for an optical drive. I'm sure a lot of folks figure 'what the heck' on that, but unless you want to go to a large and expensive NAS array, optical is really the way to go, as it's infinitely expandable, and one can still put their 'stuff' on the NAS array (I have) and have the burned copies as 'backups'.

There are also a rather large contingent of 'mini/micro' pc's out there, with large SSD drives, that also come with or have room for a 'thin' bluray drive. Simply load with Win7 or 10, add, VLC as your s/w player, and away you go for <$300 or so (a bit more than the 'streamer only' boxes which tend to be in the $1-200 range), but have the plus in that one can run Chrome or Firefox and plug up a keyboard/mouse as well, since it's a 'real' pc.

To say that MakeMKV doesn't have all the options versus demux everything and then have mkvmerge to the work, is a given. But so far, MakeMKV works fine and fast (minimal manual work) on simple discs (which unless one is into lots of foreign movies or anime) is great.

I'm still searching for some 'stand-alone' bluray player that will do MKV/PGS, although most manufacturers listed specifications lists leave much to be desired. (The Oppo's do, according to their spec sheet, but the cheapest is around $400).

The last thing I'm trying to find out, is any support in Plex or Kodi; If I was still teaching engineering/programming, the lack of documentation shown by these folks would result in their having their degrees yanked. Sad.