Feature request: Empty Subtitle Streams

[ndjamena]

Code: Select all

Set if that track (audio, video or subs) SHOULD be active if no language found matches the user preference.

Code: Select all

Default flag

The "default track" flag is a hint for the playback application and SHOULD always be changeable by the user. If the user wants to see or hear a track of a certain kind (audio, video, subtitles) and she hasn't chosen a specific track then the player SHOULD use the first track of that kind whose "default track" flag is set to "1". If no such track is found then the first track of this kind SHOULD be chosen.

Only one track of a kind MAY have its "default track" flag set in a segment. If a track entry does not contain the "default track" flag element then its default value "1" is to be used.

I know what it's supposed to do and I can kind of see the explanation in the description but I wouldn't call it 'clear'. Maybe there's a better explanation somewhere. It also leaves out the possibility that subtitles should be played by default without being forced but...

You dont have to reencode so thats Not true.

I'm playing Evangellion right now, I've set the translation subtitle track to both 'forced' and 'default' yet it's still not showing. The only way to get those subtitles to show without user intervention on the WDTV would be to re-encode the video with the translation track subtitles burned in.

The Players arent violating the specifications, so that also not true

The players are playing MKVs without following the rules, how is that not violating the specs?

[Dazkine]

The players are playing MKVs without following the rules, how is that not violating the specs?

Its not implemented. Thats all.

There are also other things for example my TV shows "Deutsch1, Deutsch2, Englisch3" instead of the names for the tracks if have set. Just because they havent everything implemented you cant talk about violating.

As far as i know there is no rule what a player must have implemented to carry the MKV letters.

I'm playing Evangellion right now, I've set the translation subtitle track to both 'forced' and 'default' yet it's still not showing. The only way to get those subtitles to show without user intervention on the WDTV would be to re-encode the video with the translation track subtitles burned in.

No read the 1st post. You have to enable Subtitles Tracks in the players men?. AND you have to make the Forced Tracks at the beginning. For example:

#1 German Forced
#2 Englisch Forced
#3 German SDH
#4 Englisch SDH

you have to remux, but there is no need for burn them in and reencode. The "problem" is the first tracks must always be forced tracks. If there is no force track on the disk for each language you want, then you need a dummy track

[ndjamena]

There is a solution to your problem written within the Matroska specs, The default and forced flags are mandatory for any and all tracks, if they're not explicitly stated they revert to a default value. They're really rather fundamental functions of the matroska specs and there's really no valid reason not to implement them. You're problem is being caused by your player and nothing else.

Your solution to forced tracks isn't a solution at all, forced tracks aren't 'play by default' tracks and are supposed to be displayed IN ADDITION to any other subtitle tracks currently displaying. Do I smell audio overlay? I'd LOVE to know how that's supposed to work with video tracks actually.

[Dazkine]

They're really rather fundamental functions of the matroska specs and there's really no valid reason not to implement them. You're problem is being caused by your player and nothing else.

pls stop talking about the same things again and again. Everybody here knows what the flags are for. But the feature is not implemented in ANY hardwareplayer. So its useless to say it again and again. The topic is about a workaround nothing else. I dont want to discuss about such things, you can create an own thread for that. Primary a solution is more useful.

Your solution to forced tracks isn't a solution at all, forced tracks aren't 'play by default' tracks and are supposed to be displayed IN ADDITION to any other subtitle tracks currently displaying

mh not sure what you mean. I dont get it.

Why isnt that a solutaion at all?

[ndjamena]

They're really rather fundamental functions of the matroska specs and there's really no valid reason not to implement them. You're problem is being caused by your player and nothing else.

pls stop talking about the same things again and again. Everybody here knows what the flags are for. But the feature is not implemented in ANY hardwareplayer. So its useless to say it again and again. The topic is about a workaround nothing else.

Your solution to forced tracks isn't a solution at all, forced tracks aren't 'play by default' tracks and are supposed to be displayed IN ADDITION to any other subtitle tracks currently displaying

mh not sure what you mean. I dont get it.

Why isnt that a solutaion at all?

Default flag

The "default track" flag is a hint for the playback application and SHOULD always be changeable by the user. If the user wants to see or hear a track of a certain kind (audio, video, subtitles) and she hasn't chosen a specific track then the player SHOULD use the first track of that kind whose "default track" flag is set to "1". If no such track is found then the first track of this kind SHOULD be chosen.

Only one track of a kind MAY have its "default track" flag set in a segment. If a track entry does not contain the "default track" flag element then its default value "1" is to be used.

Forced flag

The "forced" flag tells the playback application that it MUST display/play this track or another track of the same kind that also has its "forced" flag set. When there are multiple "forced" tracks, the player should decide on the language of the forced flag or use the default flag if no track matches the use languages. Another track of the same kind without the "forced" flag may be use simultaneously with the "forced" track (like DVD subtitles for example).

I think I asked a valid question, if you expect programmers to take subtitle default/forced flags into consideration they're going to have to look at it more holistically and realise default/forced flags aren't solely properties of subtitle tracks.

I think one of the major problems we're facing is that the Matroska Specs aren't really complete outside of the basic 'container' function. There's this vicious circle that no one wants to implement anything because nothing really makes sense, and no one wants to work on completing the specs because no one uses them. However, I really don't think implementing this kind of feature in a program like MakeMKV will be a good idea as that would cement it as a kind of defacto standard. Matroska is already leaning way too far in the direction of 'MP4 with better codec selection' which isn't what it was supposed to be. Implementing this would further dumb it down and we'd end up with players being deliberately written to play to this new 'standard'.

[Woodstock]

And, in the case of the stand-alone units, it isn't just MKV files. I own 4 stand-alone players, and all exhibit faulty behavior, relative to subtitles.

Asus plays first subtitle track, in both MKV and MP4 files. Used to be a configuration item to set behavior, but removed at a version update. Does not respect default or forced flags.

Uebo M400 plays first subtitle track, MKV or MP4, does not respect flags.

Uebo M100 plays NO subtitle track, must be toggled on after play starts, MKV or MP4, does not respect flags.

Seagate Freeagent Theater+ plays first subtitle track, MKV or MP4, does not respect flags.

In the case of the units that play subtitles by default, if an MP4 has chapter markers, they're treated like subtitles, and display if there are no subtitle tracks. And, of course, they don't treat them as chapter markers for advancing through the file.

As the others have pointed out, asking MakeMKV to help you work around broken players isn't really the smart option.

[Chetwood]

Maybe there's a better explanation somewhere.

How about hxxp://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1 ... count=1012

[ndjamena]

https://trac.bunkus.org/wiki/FAQ%3ADefa ... YesNoInMMG

That seems rather definitive.

The Specification Notes should really leave out the "If the user wants to see or hear a track of a certain kind" bit to be more definitive and file orientated.

http://www.matroska.org/technical/specs/notes.html

[ndjamena]

In the case of the units that play subtitles by default, if an MP4 has chapter markers, they're treated like subtitles, and display if there are no subtitle tracks. And, of course, they don't treat them as chapter markers for advancing through the file.

Apple Text chapters ARE subtitles. Have you tried Nero Chapters? It's likely those won't work as markers either, but at least they shouldn't be confused with subtitles. Just don't expect apple devices to recognise them.

[Dazkine]

As the others have pointed out, asking MakeMKV to help you work around broken players isn't really the smart option.

Like i said, i wouldnt call it broken just because something isnt implemented. If something is implemented in the wrong way then i would say its broken.

But do you have a better idea? As far as i know using dummy substreams is the only way if there are no forceds tracks on the disk.

Sure at least you need a player with subtitles=on.

My Dune does it. My Panasonic Viera does not.

I create my MKV files like i said. So there is no need to manually active forced subtitle tracks.

But i also dont like how xbmc handles the force flag.

For example you have a MKV file:

Audio: Ger+Eng
Subs: Ger(forced), Ger, Eng

If you set XBMC to prefer Eng Audio und Sub, it will play the Ger Forced Subtitle Track because it is carrying the forced flag. That doesnt make much sense.

If there is no forced subtitle track in the same language as the currently playing audio track, then no subtitel should be displayed in my opinion.

[ndjamena]

By your own argument MakeMKV makes MKVs. MKVs aren't just files you point a player at, they're a whole set of specifications, in order for them to be effective the programs that make the files and the programs and devices that play them all have to follow the rules. I don't know about Mike, but I know for a fact that the developer of MKVtoolNix would tell you to bugger off if you even suggested adding such a thing to his program.

If you must play your files on these players and if you can't get the players to change they're ways, rather than putting the onus on MakeMKV you should add a level of post-processing to prep your files for it's intended use.

Personally, I'd take a file I already had, split off a small part that doesn't have subtitles (the end credits maybe), extract the subtitles from the piece, then create a batch file to automatically remux my MKVs while adding the empty subtitle stream as the first subtitle, naming it 'empty' so that the batch file will recognise it if I try to remux it again. I'd even get both PGS and VobSub samples and match them with whatever is already in the file.

It may seem a bit difficult to pull off if you're not already versed in batch muxing but I really don't think this problem is anything MakeMKV should concern itself with.

[Chetwood]

If there is no forced subtitle track in the same language as the currently playing audio track, then no subtitel should be displayed in my opinion.

IYO but not according to the specs. A forced sub HAS to be played, that's why it's forced. The player would actually have to play two tracks simultaneously if there were two forced tracks inside one MKV.

[ndjamena]

According to the Specification notes, if there's a German forced track and an English forced track and your preference is English, the player should only play the English track. If there's only a German forced track and your preference is English, then it should just play the default track (or nothing, if that's the default).

- Edit - I'm not sure what happens if there's two English forced tracks.

[Chetwood]

How do you set preference in software players?

[Romansh]

How do you set preference in software players?

Under OS X, in the main application menu, select Preferences… (works for most players).