AV synchronization issues on almost every UHD disc?

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Legenista
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 12:50 am

Re: AV synchronization issues on almost every UHD disc?

Post by Legenista »

preserve wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:01 am
Legenista wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:43 am
What kind of bug this is anyway, that is so widespread?
If you're talking about the false AV Sync message appearing when forced subtitles are removed, that has already been confirmed as a bug and a false message, as reiterated in this thread. If you're talking about the possible AV Sync error occurring at 0:00:00, then yes, this seems to be a relatively recent new type of error, and we'll have to wait for more info from Mike or a new version to address what the issue may be. Neither of these issues demand the "sky is falling" drama that you're trying to create.
I am not being dramatic. It's just that I've been using this program for years and once I enabled logging I am seeing these warnings on multiple discs, even DVDs and Blu-rays. You would act the same if you depended on rips created by MAKEMKV. I don't like watching from the discs. The advantage of creating MKVs is also being able to add/remove audio/subtitle tracks. Now if I can't fully trust whatever I am ripping, and if these warnings appear 90% of the time, then this creates an atmosphere of doubt if what you are ripping is flawed. Since I rip multiple contents I would only discover a problem really later, and if it's happening with many discs then it would be annoying to go back to them and rip again. There were also instances in which I sold the disc and only kept a copy saved as MKV.

If that copy is flawed while the disc never was then you would be furious to find out this is all MAKEMKV's doing. And let's stop saying this is only due to Atmos, since the warning is appearing for most discs. If this is a false message then you need to get rid of it, too, unless it really means an issue. Otherwise it's like a young boy saying "it's just a prank!" after scaring to death a 90 year old guy that has heart problems. It's not funny.
preserve
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Location: Canada

Re: AV synchronization issues on almost every UHD disc?

Post by preserve »

Legenista wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:11 pm
if you depended on rips created by MAKEMKV.
I do, by the way. But it sounds like MakeMKV’s pace of development might not be for you. You should be aware though that due to disc authoring, not all AV Sync issues are going to ever just disappear. The difference is that MakeMKV is showing you the details of what’s happening and what it’s doing to compensate when needed.
Using: ASUS BW-16D1HT 3.00
Legenista
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue May 09, 2017 12:50 am

Re: AV synchronization issues on almost every UHD disc?

Post by Legenista »

preserve wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:32 am
Legenista wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:11 pm
if you depended on rips created by MAKEMKV.
I do, by the way. But it sounds like MakeMKV’s pace of development might not be for you. You should be aware though that due to disc authoring, not all AV Sync issues are going to ever just disappear. The difference is that MakeMKV is showing you the details of what’s happening and what it’s doing to compensate when needed.
All I want to know, even if this can't be fixed, is a detailed account on which titles are affected, and which ones MAKEMKV is giving a false alert.

If that's possible then it would make everyone's life much easier, even if you say there are a million bugs yet to be fixed.

Listen, I am not complaining about things that still have to be fixed or that may never will. In case I am not making myself clear, this is what I am complaining about:

When even bonus contents are affected, as you can see from this log (from BTTF part 3 in UHD):

https://pastebin.com/Z1MFdTvw

Then that becomes a catastrophe, because if most of stuff you try to rip with this program (which appears to be the only one available for this task, or at least the most reliable) give you a warning thay may indicate the file is damaged somehow, then it becomes pointless to continue using.

I am not saying the developers are on purpose not fixing these bugs. Of course not. All I am expressing here is my frustration that every single disc I put to the test is giving me this crap about A/V SYNC issue. This is frustrating because a) I don't know what "overlapping frame", audio skew, A/V sync issue, etc. means or entail, and b) I have no way to quickly inspect all these files and find the damage in the audio and/or video.

Even if this is 90% of the time hogwash, what if you rely on MAKEMKV for all your rips? Then that would mean you are better not use it again until all these bugs or most of them can be fixed.

It may be a false alert most of the time, but when I inspected BTTF in UHD/4K I was surprised to find out for the 1st time ever since I started using this program years ago that the content was not OK. What do I mean by that?

When I say "1st time" I mean I never had anything remotely similar to this while ripping before. In the worst scenario, it would end up like this: you were either able to rip or not. The same about decrypting the disc into your hard drive.

If MAKEMKV were in fact an emulator (instead) and the discs ROMS, BTTF part I would fit into this stage of emulation:

**********
[ ] - Perfect: The game runs flawlessly with no graphical or speed issues (can be SW mode).
[ ] - Playable: You can get from 'new game' to 'end credits' (regardless of speed).
[ X ] - Ingame: You can get through menus, intro cutscenes / videos, and see ingame graphics, but either due to graphical bugs, crashes, un-resolved errors, you can't play through the entire game.
[ ] - Menus: You can get into the menus, be it past 3D / video intro, memcard checks etc, but when starting a new game, it will lock up, crash, enter a loop etc.
[ ] - Intro: The game will show 2D logos, or video, but will not get into menus. This could be one screen, or 20, but won't show much.
[ ] - Nothing: Exactly what it says, this game crashes before showing any graphics, making any sound etc!
**********

More or less it would be in this scenario. You can go through all the movie, all the audio/subtitle tracks, but you can't "watch the entire content" (or PLAY the game) without spotting a problem.

The problem in this case it's the Atmos track giving you audio dropouts and the video freezing at part 4 after splitting into 15 GB pieces.

There's also another possibility which I can't discard and needs further investigation:

ATMOS tracks breaking only because you splitted them, so they are the only ones that break if we do that:
http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1 ... tcount=934

If that's the case then MKVTOOLNIX would need to be changed to treat them just like it is now with FLACS, for this reason:
https://gitlab.com/mbunkus/mkvtoolnix/- ... -supported

So perhaps the MKVTOOLNIX developer (MOSU) is the one that needs to fix this for good, since Atmos is in many titles, while FLAC is in only very few. And I always use his program to edit my MKVs.

This is very strange, because when I play the movie without splitting, perhaps the audio dropout isn't there. At least I am not seeing. But when I do split, part 4 or anywhere near has the audio dropout/freezing at the very first seconds.

Since I mentioned PS2 compatibility list, I meant the people that developed the PCSX2 emulator were capable of check every single game and tell us which one is in what condition.

For example:

0 titles are in the "NOTHING" scenario. 1 title is in INTRO:

[ ] - Intro: The game will show 2D logos, or video, but will not get into menus. This could be one screen, or 20, but won't show much.

- Real World Golf, identified by "SLUS21332'.

A total of 9 titles are in this scenario:

[ ] - Menus: You can get into the menus, be it past 3D / video intro, memcard checks etc, but when starting a new game, it will lock up, crash, enter a loop etc.

Among them is Final Fantasy XI from the U.S., identified by the "SCUS97266" serial.

38 entries exist for INGAME, 2599 for PLAYABLE and only 17 for "PERFECT".

*****
So that implies the PS2 emulator, just like MAKEMKV, is never going to deliver a "PERFECT" result for 100% of titles. Impossible. Not now or in a million years. The same can be said about other EMULATORS/SYSTEMS. There's always something to fix/improve.

So that's what I was hoping for. Since you asked, this is what I fear about ripping with MAKEMKV: not knowing if the content is damaged, and assuming it's all 100% OK. If even bonus contents are affected, to list and check everything, every single title, would be impossible and perhaps more time demanding than fixing the bugs. Despite that, we need to keep monitoring the rips/results.

Whatever these companies are putting in all those UHD discs, it's really difficult to handle. Back when we weren't able to decrypt any UHD I thought this was a distant possibility, now that we can do that, I hope this can be improved over time. So I hope MAKEMKV can be perfected and crush these bugs in the near future.
aloha
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2020 12:56 pm

Re: AV synchronization issues on almost every UHD disc?

Post by aloha »

Hello:

Out of curiosity, I'm wondering if the same type of synchronization issue occurs when DVDFab is used as the ripper (I know this is not a DVDFab forum)? Specifically an apples to apples compare, meaning rip the disk, then do the file split into 4, etc. then compare to see if problem exist. If yes, then how is it that two separate softwares yield the same result? If not, where is the change? I think you get the idea. Not trying to add more work for anyone but being the OP knows exactly how/where file splits occurred and is intimate with their procedure it is my belief this might help narrow down the problem if one in fact does exist.

To be honest I have no dog in this fright, I'm just very curious truth be told. But if there is a problem maybe this would help speed the process of getting it corrected. If there is no problem, then mystery (possibly) solved.

Now I'm sure an argument could be made that there is no real way to get an apples to apples compare. This might be true, but I'm willing to bet, it would be damn close (meaning - same basic settings, extraction of same audio, etc resulting in the same or VERY similar output file). It has been awhile since I used DVDFab but last I recall DVDFab offered a passthrough MKV setting with the ability to set desired audio extraction.

Apologies if discussion of a comparison of the RIP software was already discussed.

Regards,
A
preserve
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:21 pm
Location: Canada

Re: AV synchronization issues on almost every UHD disc?

Post by preserve »

Legenista wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:11 pm
All I want to know, even if this can't be fixed, is a detailed account on which titles are affected, and which ones MAKEMKV is giving a false alert.
The conditions of false alerts etc have already been clearly communicated and are easily determined when you rip a disc. To create a list of every title that logs AV Sync issues would be impossible, if not highly impractical. I’m sure you’d rather that the time required for such an impossible task would be spent on development instead.

Again, if you run into a MakeMKV issue with a specific disc while using the latest version, you should post that issue in the appropriate disc-related subforum along with the log so that it can be investigated on a case by case basis.
Using: ASUS BW-16D1HT 3.00
Legenista
Posts: 42
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Re: AV synchronization issues on almost every UHD disc?

Post by Legenista »

For the record, I have discovered issues with splitting and appending using MKVToolnix, especially with larger files from UHD/4K discs with new stuff such as Dolby Atmos.

The errors started to appear because I had to split big files (even normal 1080p Blu-rays needed that) to fit into free 15 GB accounts.

I have produced evidence of this major issue. If we use MAKEMKV and then rip into a single MKV, nothing happens.

But if we do that, do all our edits, and then split and append, two things will certainly happen:

- Defective macro blocking in a specific scene (I only saw once, in BTTF part III (1990))
- The movie apparently it's still OK, however the fps somehow changes internally and it becomes IMPOSSIBLE to sync what we did before, now into this new 4K, with a different length.

For example: let's assume these have the same length:

- 1080p lossy rip: 2 GB - 1 hour, 2 minutes and 2 seconds.
- UHD/4K lossless rip: 50 GB - 1 hour, 2 minutes and 2 seconds.

If I split and append using MKVToolnix this will happen:

- UHD/4K lossless rip: 50 GB - 1 hour, 2 minutes and 10 seconds.

So I will be now UNABLE to extract anything from the "1080p lossy rip" and put into this new 4K 8 seconds longer.

Start reading my messages from here: https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php? ... ost1940349

I made multiple posts evidencing this problem.

Some users say this is inherent to MATROSKA, and I raised the question if this couldn't be solved by MKVTOOLNIX's creator.

Since there is no word on what went wrong and considering I saw different problems with different movies/discs, I stopped using split and appending for GOOD.

Bottom line: never split any MKV. Never use that option.

It took me a while to figure this out because I have been doing this FOR YEARS, yet only recently with 4Ks. And at first I was quite sure this was MAKEMKV'S fault.

Not saying MAKEMKV is perfect, only that my habit of splitting and appending all the time prevented me from identifying right away these anomalies.

I am ripping all I can once more.

And when I put them in Google Drive or anywhere else I will be using WinRAR instead, and of course keeping a single, whole file. No more splitting.
alrighty
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:55 pm

Re: AV synchronization issues on almost every UHD disc?

Post by alrighty »

I created an ISO for rogue one 4k UHD. When I'm making an mkv I get a lot of av sync error messages. I really don't like them but as I understand it it's necessary to keep sync. Now I made the same mkv 3 times and I get different errors every time which kind of worries me. I can see how maybe if you read directly from a disc this might happen, but from an ISO on an ssd????
The first time there were only sync errors in track 2. The second time it had the same errors but there was also a DEBUG line. The third time there were sync errors in track 1 and 2 and much more DEBUG lines and more sync errors than in the previous runs. How is this possible?

I attached the text displayed in makemkv as well as the actual log file.

EDIT:
I did a bit more testing. I made an mkv with only audio stream 1, and no sync issues occured, so no frames were dropped. I extracted the video stream and compared it to the video stream from the file with sync errors and dropped frames. The file size of the video streams is exactly the same. So can I assume that makemkv does not drop any video frames, but only adjust the audio stream to keep sync?
Attachments
MakeMKV_log rogue one.txt
(73.04 KiB) Downloaded 4 times
rogue one.txt
(15.26 KiB) Downloaded 4 times
preserve
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:21 pm
Location: Canada

Re: AV synchronization issues on almost every UHD disc?

Post by preserve »

alrighty wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:16 pm
So can I assume that makemkv does not drop any video frames, but only adjust the audio stream to keep sync?
That’s correct.
Using: ASUS BW-16D1HT 3.00
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